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Switch to Forum Live View Jews and Christians diverge, first of all, on the Messiah: can they converge again on the Messiah?
3 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2011 - 5:12PM #11
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jun 1, 2011 -- 8:16PM, wohali wrote:


"D>. All TRUE YHWH-followers will dwell together in time eternal."


Fine. Could you guys go do it someplace else?





BS"D


Personally, I believe "time eternal" would be a far better place for this "activity" than here and now and anytime in the future on Turtle Island.  The sooner the better.   (heheh)

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 7:14AM #12
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Rocket


Jun 1, 2011 -- 1:44PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:

very funny. [actually, dead serious]


Your analysis of the rise of Christianity is a bit weak, but I understand your desire to compress a complex and multifaceted event into a single paragraph. [the essence is all there] Unfortunately, your understanding of Judaism is, for all intents and purposes  more or less non-existent. [so says you ...] There is a difference between believing in the coming of a messiah/messianic age and that such a thing, despite all appearance to the contrary has occurred  I and all other Jews await the coming of the messiah/messianic age but we are not holding our collective breaths. [a clumsy and confused sentence, to be kind ...]


The short answer to your question is no. [alas ...]


Jesus was not the messiah. Nothing changes that basic fact, ever. ["fact"? you obviously confuse between fact and interpretation of a fact]


If it were ever an offshoot of Judaism, [it sure was] Christianity left and cannot return. [how about: Christianity must step back and Judaism needs to catch up?]


That doesn't mean we can't get along. [the name of the game is not "tolerance", not even "harmonious tolerance"] It does mean that the two religious structures cannot meld into one.


No, not the "religious structures", that is not what I am talking about.


If you believe that there is a "Heavenly Father" in control [#] then we are ALL serving His plan, are we not?


Mario


[#] You refer to Him, out of respect, as HaShem.

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 7:17AM #13
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Leah


Jun 1, 2011 -- 4:34PM, LeahOne wrote:

... I don't think you understand Judaism well enough to realize the flaws in your hypothesis....  What Christians attach to MbD and what Jews expect are very different.


And actually, the 'difference' starts with Genesis......


These are mere assertions.


Why don't you support them with some (decent ...) arguments? Wink


Mario

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 8:21AM #14
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Buns


Jun 1, 2011 -- 7:12PM, Bunsinspace wrote:

I believe that there will be NO peace between Judaism and Christianity based upon a notion of a messiah. I believe there will be peace between ALL nations (peoples/tribes/political and religious entities) when all peoples CHOOSE to respect each other and the rest of Creation (the knowable universe.)  This concept of respect and peace is a universal among all peoples except for those whose reason for existence is domination, conquest and hatred of all things different. Those peoples who choose the path of death and destruction have no share in the world to come that is the common future for all peoples who choose respect.


Christianity has this massive over-riding notion of "love" at its core. But that is meaningless and a mockery without respect. With respect it is something that is a powerful force for good IMHO. Without respect it results in hate-crimes and genocide.


Judaism is merely one of the last of the ancient "religions." As such it shares much in common with the religions of many peoples prior to the forceful entry of Christianity and Islam - both through the agency of violence - on the "conquered" portions of the Earth. There is no peace there and no sense in looking for it. Christianity and Islam must practice respect for other peoples and their differences in beliefs and lifestyles to even be in the same ballpark with the rest of the world IMHO. [emphasis MdS]


All this emphasis on respect is certainly a good thing, but are you sure that there is not something more to God's plan?


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 11:15AM #15
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,519

Mario


Here is one of the essential problems with talking to you. Your ideas concerning "a heavenly father, controlling everything" is a lovely Christian concept and it fits within a least a few streams of Christian thought. It does not work for us. It just isn't the way we look at the world. Nor does it have much to do with our daily life or concerns. 


Predetermination is not our thing.


Talk of a "Heavenly father" is suspect unless you are using such a phrase as a literary device. 


There really are two different world views. If, in fact, you knew anything at all about Judaism you would understand that. 


Finally and once and for all, Jesus was not the messiah. This is not a matter of interpretation It is a statement of verifiable fact. We are not currently living in the messianic age. Therefore no matter what nice things you might want to say about Jesus, he was not the messiah, not even close. The forgoing statement applies to the Jewish concept of messiah. The Christian concept of messiah differs from the Jewish concept. The differences are not a result of different interpretations. The differences  are the result of a conscious decision by Christians to alter the qualifications and duties of the messiah from that required in Jewish tradition.


Jews and Christians share a common word for two different concepts.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 11:33AM #16
LeahOne
Posts: 15,735

Jun 3, 2011 -- 7:17AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Leah


Jun 1, 2011 -- 4:34PM, LeahOne wrote:

... I don't think you understand Judaism well enough to realize the flaws in your hypothesis....  What Christians attach to MbD and what Jews expect are very different.


And actually, the 'difference' starts with Genesis......


These are mere assertions.


Why don't you support them with some (decent ...) arguments?


Mario





I did.  I have.  And so have others. 


You've just exceeded my ability to tolerate your most digusting slanders and lies.   OUT.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 12:47PM #17
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,900

Jun 3, 2011 -- 8:21AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


All this emphasis on respect is certainly a good thing, but are you sure that there is not something more to God's plan?


MdS





BS"D


Good point.  I do not presume to know "G-d's plan"  nor is it part of Judaism to discern such.  But individual prophets may reveal a specific possible destiny for a specific future event - and that is directly related to the actions of the people. 


My emphasis on respect for others and all of Creation is simply based upon the accumulated wisdom of about 6 millenia of the Jewish people and many more of the Native American peoples - specifically the Blackfoot.  It is an observation based upon real human interactions throughout history rather than divine speculation.  I do not make the claim that this is a "divine revelation" because anybody who has eyes to see and ears to hear can come to the same conclusion without resorting to religion or deistic pretensions.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2011 - 4:52PM #18
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Leah, yeah, I know Jews don't make calls on who is a "TRUE BELIEVER". Neither do Indians.


I just get tired of these chuckleheads that do.....

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2011 - 10:49AM #19
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,134

I don't see the need to try to 'meld'  the two faiths together. So Christians and Jews think differently. Big whoop. Hell, Christians aren't even uniform *within* the faith on a lot of things, so why should we expect anyone else from any other religion to fall in line with us?


IMO Judaism and Christianity are two separate books on the same bookshelf.

More where that came from...

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2011 - 11:25AM #20
wohali
Posts: 10,227

BD, well said.

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