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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2011 - 12:26PM #1
vra
Posts: 6,403
I have never posted on Pesach for the main reason that I consider it both a religious and a family holiday, but I have to admit that I don't know if halacha prohibits us from doing as such since it's a energy holiday?  Can someone answer that question for me?  

BTW, while I'm at it, let me wish all of you a very meaningful Passover and...

Shabbat shalom.
Vern 
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2011 - 12:37PM #2
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

If it is your observance that using the computer is prohibited on Shabbat, then using the computer on yom tov would likewise be prohibited.


Melakhah is prohibited on both Shabbat and yom tov. However, on yom tov, there is the proviso that melakhah may be performed for the sake of what a person may "eat" on that day. 


It depends on how liberally one wants to define "eat" - literally as in just food, or more broadly as in enjoying the day?


For example, cooking is prohibited on Shabbat; food for Shabbat must be prepared beforehand.


Cooking is permitted on yom tov, but only for food to be eaten on yom tov. 


Now, the question is whether using the computer is melakhah and is prohibited on Shabbat. 


There are numerous arguments for the prohibition, connected as it is with the prohibition of using electricity. 


It's not clear, exactly, which of the 39 avot melakhah electricity is supposed to fall under. It doesn't really fall under any of them. So if it's not really prohibited on Shabbat, it's not prohibited on yom tov. 


Even if it's not technically prohibited, one might want to choose to avoid the computer since it's a workday thing and one might want to disconnect for a day and focus on other things. In which case, one might find it meaningful to avoid the computer on yom tov, too. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2011 - 3:08PM #3
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 15, 2011 -- 12:37PM, nieciedo wrote:


If it is your observance that using the computer is prohibited on Shabbat, then using the computer on yom tov would likewise be prohibited.


Melakhah is prohibited on both Shabbat and yom tov. However, on yom tov, there is the proviso that melakhah may be performed for the sake of what a person may "eat" on that day. 


It depends on how liberally one wants to define "eat" - literally as in just food, or more broadly as in enjoying the day?


For example, cooking is prohibited on Shabbat; food for Shabbat must be prepared beforehand.


Cooking is permitted on yom tov, but only for food to be eaten on yom tov. 


Now, the question is whether using the computer is melakhah and is prohibited on Shabbat. 


There are numerous arguments for the prohibition, connected as it is with the prohibition of using electricity. 


It's not clear, exactly, which of the 39 avot melakhah electricity is supposed to fall under. It doesn't really fall under any of them. So if it's not really prohibited on Shabbat, it's not prohibited on yom tov. 


Even if it's not technically prohibited, one might want to choose to avoid the computer since it's a workday thing and one might want to disconnect for a day and focus on other things. In which case, one might find it meaningful to avoid the computer on yom tov, too. 






Thanks so much for the explanation, and what you say makes sense to me.  I don't turn on the computer nor do we cook on Shabbos, but we do cook on Pesach unless it falls on Shabbat but I wasn't certain of the explanation.  One rule we don't follow is that we do carry over leftovers for the 2nd seder as we can't stand the thought of throwing away food.


Thanks again and good Shabbos and yom tov.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2011 - 3:42PM #4
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

I believe that the issue is intention.


If you cook a meal for yom tov and you have left-overs, then that's OK. There's nothing wrong with eating them and, in fact, bal tashchit would forbid that.


You just aren't supposed to deliberately cook food intending it to be for more than one day on yom tov. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2011 - 12:44AM #5
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Apr 15, 2011 -- 12:26PM, vra wrote:

I have never posted on Pesach for the main reason that I consider it both a religious and a family holiday, but I have to admit that I don't know if halacha prohibits us from doing as such since it's a energy holiday?  Can someone answer that question for me?  

BTW, while I'm at it, let me wish all of you a very meaningful Passover and...

Shabbat shalom.
Vern 




I'm thinking don't, Vern, and here's why..... Based upon my vast knowledge  of Jewish law (dig on myself as posting and not being Jewish intended), I recall my late wife telling me about her Kosher grand  parents using the kids too young to know be considered at "an age of reason", or having the understanding understanding of the religion, to do things like turn  on or off such things as lights or other appliances. She guessed it was  their impression that even turning on a light switch constituted  "working on the sabbath", or expending energy, as you said. Now if you are concerned enough to ask, then  (as Nicedo suggested about intent), perhaps you have some concern about  this actually being considered some type of "work". if you feel this,  then it's my impression that you feel it would be wrong, and therefore  the intent would be that you were doing something prohibited on the  sabbath.

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2011 - 12:59AM #6
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

It's not clear, exactly, which of the 39 avot melakhah electricity is  supposed to fall under. It doesn't really fall under any of them.


I thought that the switch to turn on electricity corresponded to the prohibited hammer blow, makeh bapatish.



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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2011 - 10:50AM #7
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
The problem with that is that melakhah implies transformation and also permanency.

What is transformed when a switch is thrown or a button is pressed? Nothing new has been created. The electrical apparatus has already been "finished." Electricity that had previously been impeded can now flow, just like how opening a faucet allows water to flow. Turning on a water tap is not prohibited on Shabbat.

Also, when one turns on a light, does one really intend or believe that one has created something productive and new that will in theory last forever? Tying knots is prohibited on Shabbat, yet one can tie one's shoes because it is a temporary knot, intended to last only as long as wearing the shoes is necessary. Even if one puts on shoes before going to shul and doesn't take them off until after havdalah, there is no transgression.

This same absence of permanency also cancels out "building."

Electricity can create heat and that heat can be used to cause a beneficial and permanent change in an object, but the use of electricity itself is not "cooking."

Since electricity is the flow of electrons through a conductor and fire is a chemical reaction with oxygen, it's clearly not "kindling a fire."

Taking the rules of the system at their word, I really can't see how electricity is prohibited on Shabbat. If it is not explicitly forbidden, it should be therefore permitted. It seems to me that the blanket prohibition in electricity was made up for the sake of making Shabbat different and not a little difficult with the halakhic justification invented rather half-assedly later.

Once the weekend became a universal and expected feature of modern life so that everyone in theory was entitled to a day off from labor from Friday night through Saturday, I wonder if there was an unconscious drive to make Shbbat even more complicated? Hence the reports of greater and greater stringency in Shabbat laws in the post-war period?
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2011 - 4:11PM #8
ffb
Posts: 2,170

if you want an in depth analysis of electricity on shabbos and yom tov, you can read this article


www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broy...


and this one


www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/722...


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2011 - 5:02PM #9
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 16, 2011 -- 12:44AM, johnacancienne wrote:


... if you feel this, then it's my impression that you feel it would be wrong, and therefore the intent would be that you were doing something prohibited on the sabbath.




Sounds like my rabbi's (Reform) advice.  For example, gardening on the Sabbath he tends to feel is probably OK if you're really doing it for pleasure rather than that you feel you have to.  I'm not sure that formula would work in every case, but I think he does have a point that may work much of the time.


Thanks, and good yom tov. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2011 - 5:20PM #10
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Would reading be permitted, at times when other kinds of work activities are not? I know probably a  silly question, just popped into my head. I am sincere however, I love reading, so it is almost always a pleasure for me.


 

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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