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Switch to Forum Live View The date of Easter this year
4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 5:32PM #21
Ed.W
Posts: 9,444

He did not say that the march moon was the one that was used.  He said had it come two days later we'd be having the earliest possible easter.  But since it came just 2 days earlier we are having almost the latest possible easter.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 5:49PM #22
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Brain:


The date of "Easter" was not important to the early  Christians.  That would be the date of Jesus' resurrection.  What Jesus  told them to celebrate was his DEATH. (Luke 22:19)  This would coincide  with PASSOVER.


There was a dispute among the myriad Christian groups in East and West over whether or not the "pascha" was to be celebrated on the day he died or the day he rose. Some thought that the day he rose was already celebrated every Sunday by calling it the Lord's Day, and that the day of his death should be Easter. By 325 at the Council of Nicaea Easter was set to be the day of the resurrection not the crucifixion. Even then, a dispute continued as to which day he was killed with some taking the synoptic view of the 15th and other taking the johanine view of the 14th. 


 


The Jews reckoned  the day as starting after sundown on Nisan 14 and ending the next day at  sundown. (It would be in the evening after Nisan 13 concluded that the  Passover would be observed.)


Two halves that you put together incorrectly. Jews reckoned the Passover as starting after sundown on Nisan 14 and ending the next day at  sundown.(That is correct except we combined the Passover with the holiday of unleavened bread so that it is now 7 days long, but that was not your mistake.)


(It would be in the evening after Nisan 13 concluded that the  Passover would be observed.)


That is the part that you have confused or I have misunderstood.  The day of Nissan the 13th nothing happened and was not the holiday. Sundown the 13th was the beginning of the 14th of Nisan and still nothing happened. In the afternoon of the 14th, the lamb was slaughtered (John has Jesus dying then). Then that night, after sundown, which is the beginning of the 15th of Nisan, there is the Passover meal/seder, which the synoptics call the Last Supper, and that is the beginning of the holiday. (The synoptics have Jesus killed on the 1st full day of Passover, the 15th,  after he ate the Last Supper, which they say coincides with the Passover meal.


This year the "Lord's Supper" is to celebrated on April 17th, which harmonizes with Nisan 14.


Just to be clear, the daytime of April 17th is the day Nisan 13. That night at sundown, sundown of April 17, when you have your meal, the "Lord's Supper,"   begins the !4th of Nisan. According to John, Jesus was killed on the 14th of Nisan in the afternoon, (the passover lamb was killed by the Jews in that afternoon of the 14th) after eating the meal, the Lord's Supper/Last Supper the night before that you would call the night of the 13th of Nisan but we would call the beginning of 14 Nisan.


You are presenting in the above the johanine version of the Last Supper which would have been the night before the Passover Seder. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, describe the Last Supper as taking place the night of the 14th, after the Lamb was killed in the afternoon, that night that we call the beginning of the 15th of Nisan.


To be factual, the world's "Easter" celebration would fall on Nisan 17th, or, April 20th.


"Factual" is interesting. If Jesus was killed during the day of the 14 Nisan, this year's April 18 as John says, then his resurrection/Easter would be 3 days later on Nisan 17 Nisan/April 21.


There are a couple of "facts" that are being overlooked. First, the Church has been practicing a Sunday Easter since ca 325. There were groups before 325 that counted 3 days from Passover to celebrate Easter even if they fell during the week, as you are doing. Even they, however, might dispute your 14 Nisan to 17 Nisan if they followed the synoptics. Then those midweek Easter celebrants would have counted 15 Nisan to 18 Nisan.


Your church obviously disagrees with most who celebrate Holy Thursday as the Last Supper, Good Friday as the crucifixion, and Sunday as the resurrection. Your church does have support from groups before 325 but are obviously going against the grain of most other churches.


It  looks like both the Jews and Christendom have got the dates wrong this  year. 


Other churches are only "wrong" in the sense that they chose not to follow the Jewish calendar in setting Easter since 325. The Council decided to set it according to the formula I described earlier because it was unseemly, they thought, to be asking Jews when their passover was in order to celebrate the resurrection.


As for why you think Jews got the date wrong is puzzling. Our calendar is Lunar, and we count the fourteen days from the New Moon of the first spring month and have our Passover begin sundown that night. The astronomical New Moon, the scientifically correct New Moon,  cannot be seen. So in ancient times it could hardly be used to begin the month. Folks would look up and see nothing; that is the astronomical New Moon. The Moon used for our calendar is actually a day or two later when the earliest, smallest crescent sliver of the New Moon can be seen a day or two after the astronomical, scientific New Moon.


April 3 at 2:32 pm  is the astronomical New Moon. Add a day or so for the crescent to appear and you have April 4. Add 14 days for the full moon and you have April 18. The night of April 18, is the beginning of 15 Nisan (the night that ends the day of the 14 of Nisan); we will have our Seder as Jesus had his Last Supper according to Matt., Mk., and Luke. Now if we have made


 



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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 6:01PM #23
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Bezant:


I think it's always the first Sunday after Passover begins, if I'm not wrong, in the Western Church.


Yes.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 6:11PM #24
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Bezant:


Brain:


That would be the date of Jesus'  resurrection.  What Jesus told them to celebrate was his DEATH. (Luke  22:19)  This would coincide with PASSOVER.


Bezant:


That makes no sense. Without the resurrection Christ is a failed prophet.


There was an early church practice to call Easter, Pasch, which was comparable to the Hebrew Pesach/Passover. Some groups "celebrated" the crucifixion as their "Easter" as opposed to the resurrection.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 6:13PM #25
howiedds
Posts: 2,687

Jim rigas:


The (western) Easter is not controlled by the Passover but by the calendar.  So is the Passover.


One could say that both are controlled by the phases of the Moon with some tradition thrown in.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 7:41PM #26
writingal1
Posts: 3,733

It's always interesting to think about how many organized religions base their holidays/holydays on pre-existibg so-called "pagan" celebrations....


Like Xmas for example.


And Easter.


And Pesach and Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur...


Etc etc etc.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 9:04PM #27
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,607

Apr 2, 2011 -- 5:08PM, Bezant wrote:


Apr 2, 2011 -- 2:59PM, Brainscramble wrote:


Mar 31, 2011 -- 4:59PM, stardustpilgrim wrote:

This year Easter is virtually the latest date it can possibly be.

Without looking it up, who knows (or doesn't know) how the date of Easter is arrived at each year?

(Hints: basis from Judaism; and, three different factors involved).

stardustpilgrim




The date of "Easter" was not important to the early Christians.




That there are generally two dates for Easters says otherwise.


Apr 2, 2011 -- 2:59PM, Brainscramble wrote:


That would be the date of Jesus' resurrection.  What Jesus told them to celebrate was his DEATH. (Luke 22:19)  This would coincide with PASSOVER.




That makes no sense. Without the resurrection Christ is a failed prophet.





Oh come on.  Pay attention.  I said that Jesus REQUIRED only that Christians celebrate his death.  That would fall on the date of Passover---the date that Israel left Egypt, and the date that Jesus was crucified.  It was NISAN 14 on the Jewish calendar.


I said nothing to indicate that Christ's resurrection was not important.  Of course it is.  But the earliest Christians did not celebrate his resurrection.  That was something the apostate church initiated later on, and called it by a pagan goddess's name.


 

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 9:10PM #28
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,607

Apr 2, 2011 -- 6:55PM, Ed.W wrote:


Apr 2, 2011 -- 5:08PM, Bezant wrote:


That makes no sense. Without the resurrection Christ is a failed prophet.




I saw my JW visitor today and of course he invited me to the April 17, which is not Good Friday or Easter Sunday, but it is


Palm Sunday.  And that's the day of the Triumphal Entry real serious day, can't be visiting that day at the KH.  Hope he comes back so I can tell him for sure I won't be going.


 


*****Why not?....it's the most accurate date.  April 17th corresponds to Nisan 14 on the Jewish calendar, and that's the date of the original Passover.  It is, of course, also the date of Jesus' death ("Christ, our Passover," I Corinthians 5:7).


Your "Good Friday" and "Easter Sunday" are days that are OFF and do not correspond to original dates and events.  Get with the real program.


Dang that's a good song.  Crystal Lewis, The Beauty of the Cross.  On part 2 of the video. Adelphe, 2:39


 


When he mentioned it I mentioned Easter, and he had this blank look on his face like it was a Pagan holiday, and JW's don't do any holidays including Easter. 


Near the end of the video, in the top right a green box will come up, click on it to watch part 2 it's good too and has a GREAT song playing.


 


 








I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 9:21PM #29
Ed.W
Posts: 9,444

You are also holding your memorial before even the passover. 


My birthday however has always fallen on a Tuesday.  Been like that for 40 somethin years.


 


Easter is a "moveable feast" in Christendom.      :-P

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 9:34PM #30
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,607

Apr 3, 2011 -- 4:05PM, howiedds wrote:


Pardon this Jew for trying to help out.


Unlike the Roman/secular calendar, which is strictly solar, the Jewish calendar is a combination of a lunar and solar calendar. The days are governed by the sun, but the months follow the cycles of the moon. Each new moon is a new month of 29 to 30 days long.


The death and resurrection were always associated with Passover. 


*****Thank you.


 


  Passover is celebrated the 15th of Nisan


*****I understand that Passover was always followed by 7 days of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes---Nisan 15-21.  This Festival followed Passover.  So wouldn't Passover be on Nisan 14? 


 


, Nisan being the first spring month and the 15th coming at the full moon of that month.  Now the date of that day, although always the 15th of Nisan on the Jewish lunar/solar calendar, varies during the month of March and April on the secular, strictly solar calendar.


*****So the variances are due to the SECULAR calendar.  If we are to be accurate, we would go with the Jewish calendar, am I right?


And why not be accurate?  Why should we go with the unprecise calculations of some monk from the 4th century?


 


 


 


 Since Passover varies, Easter also varied. There were groups in the first 400 years of the Church who celebrated Easter on Tues. or Thurs. or whenever it was 3 days after Passover and Passover varied on the Roman calendar from year to year. 


*****That makes more sense than what the churches do today.


In 325CE at the Council of Nicaea, the Church established that Easter should be on the first Sunday of the first spring month after the full moon appeared, as the first one was purported to be. although it did take over 100 years for this tradition to spread throughout the Empire.


Easter is now completely independent of when Passover is ( that was the purpose of Nicaea, to further establish the Church’s independence from Judaism, not to have to ask the Jews when Passover was to schedule Easter),


*****There you have the problem.  Why is it OK to accept the loathing of the Council of Nicaea of being associated with Judaism and thus shun the date of Passover and the resulting date for their "Easter"?  Easter is named after a pagan goddess AND, to boot, it is not even associated with the actual date of the death of Christ!


For the record....Jehovah's Witnesses do ask the Jews when Passover is to occur.  I just personally wonder why they, the Jews, don't stick with Nisan 14, which is the original Passover date.


 


 but it still depends on the cycles of the moon which don’t always coincide with the same day every year that is based on the sun.


*****I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, and I just don't see why the original date of the Passover is not employed.


 


 


 You will always know that Christmas is on the 25th of the winter month, December, but you will always have to look up when Easter is. (BTW, you‘ll have to look up Pentecost also because it falls 50 days after Easter and therefore depends on Easter for its date.)


*****But it SHOULD depend on the date of the Passover, should it not?


 


In the west, the complete rule is Easter Sunday is the first Sunday which occurs after the first full moon (or more accurately the  fourteenth day of the moon, which is not always an astronomical full moon) following the 21st of March,the earliest possible date of Easter is 22 March, the latest 25 April.


March 19/20/21 can be the astronomical vernal equinox in the northern hemisphere, and the "vernal equinox" was the original concept, i.e. "the first Sunday which occurs after the first full moon, following the vernal equinox...The Church in the west later determined for ecclesiastic purposes, the vernal equinox should always be counted as 21 March for the sake of uniformity.


*****Sake of uniformity?  I would wager the Church has done many inappropriate things for the sake of "uniformity."  Their acquiescence to Constantine was one example, I'm sure.


In the Eastern rite, which uses a Julian Calendar from 45 BCE and not the Gregorian calendar of 1582 CE that the west uses, Easter can vary from 4 April to 8 May.


*****I appreciate your information.


,





I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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