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7 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 9:14PM #41
realif
Posts: 60

I have every intention of celebrating Yeshua as a Messianic Jew. You posted that Yeshua was a Jew.  How do you believe all these mistaken ideas have come about in Christianity about Him?  Think about it, Yeshua was a Jew, His parents were Jews, the apostles were Jews, where does a pagen based Christianity come from? 

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7 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 9:17PM #42
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,796

You may celebrate and worship in any way you please. But it is not Judaism as long as  prayer are given  to another, other then the God of Abraham, which Jesus is not.


No problem.


 

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 9:19PM #43
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,796

Apr 6, 2011 -- 9:14PM, realif wrote:


I have every intention of celebrating Yeshua as a Messianic Jew. You posted that Yeshua was a Jew.  How do you believe all these mistaken ideas have come about in Christianity about Him?  Think about it, Yeshua was a Jew, His parents were Jews, the apostles were Jews, where does a pagen based Christianity come from? 





The Pagan comes with the Virgin birth for one, it is a Pagan concept, came from a long line of Pagan gods, there are others but start  with that. Then of course the concept of human /god hybrids is also a Pagan concept

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 9:26PM #44
realif
Posts: 60

I know most of the things in Christianity are pagan, why is it when you say it it's o.k, when I say it I'm called names.   I am no longer associated with Christianity, and I don't remember saying I wanted to be a Jew, I just wanted to learn how to celebrate as Yeshua did.  Since I am no longer associated with Christianity, in order to continue following Yeshua I became Messianic Jew.   I intend to continue being a Messianic Jew, and you can continue calling me names.

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7 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 9:41PM #45
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Apr 6, 2011 -- 9:14PM, realif wrote:


I have every intention of celebrating Yeshua as a Messianic Jew. You posted that Yeshua was a Jew.



Yes, and as I've stated here and other places, he was a Jew who followed every dot and every jot of the law. He was considered by a few to be the messiah to lead them in a successful revolt against the Roman government.... Not to save their souls... they had a prescribed set of rituals and laws (which Jesus fully participated in) for that purpose.


If the man actually existed at all, he did not come to start a Christian cult. There's where the mistake comes in, and the Christian concept of Jesus being a messiah was born.


Apr 6, 2011 -- 9:14PM, realif wrote:

How do you believe all these mistaken ideas have come about in Christianity about Him?  Think about it, Yeshua was a Jew, His parents were Jews, the apostles were Jews, where does a pagen based Christianity come from?




The so called Pagan aspects of what has become Christianity today has already been explained to you earlier on page 4 post #32. Obviously, you didn't like what you read, so you've ignored it, or you are just too damn lazy to read it. I don't know which.


I'm going to prescribe some good reading for you. One book is called Rabbi Paul and the other is Rabbi Jesus Both books were written by Bruce Chilton. That is the best to give you an insight to what Judaism was, and where the changes came in for Christianity. Read 'em...... They might just teach you something.

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 1:04AM #46
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

Apr 6, 2011 -- 8:31PM, realif wrote:


I should have been given instruction by my mother, but I wasn't.  If you disagree with what I've posted then let's discuss it like adults instead of constant insults. 


 


OK, one more try at this


 I know that Jewish people or people who pretend to be Jewish don't like me because I believe in Yeshua. 


This is not something you could know:  it's what you BELIEVE.  It's not true on several points:


1) Nobody here is 'pretending to be Jewish' - and if anyone were, you admit you completely lack any means of determining that, because you are so ignorant of Judaism.


2) Nobody here has ever, that I've seen,posted that they don't like you because you want to worship Jesus.


 Sorry, that will never change.


Nobody has ever suggested you need to change your beliefs:  please stop posting as though anyone had - OR, show us their words.


  Since He was a Jew I just wanted to understand and celebrate the holidays as He did. So I went elsewhere for instruction. 


Exactly where did you go?   Judaism 101 has good information.  Your previous links that you've given have all been Christian ones.


 If that instruction was wrong and I doubt it was,


I doubt Judaism101's instruction was wrong - they assuredly weren't telling you that 'the Talmud is just folk tales and nonsense'


 then instead of insulting me they should have put me on the right path. 


Please show me what you perceived as insulting you.  So far you've railed against words that were never posted to you here.  And you seem to forget that you've done quite a thorough job of insulting Judaism, Jews, and the posters here.  Every time you post your 'suspicions' that we're only pretending to be Jewish, that's insulting. 


Let me demonstrate:  'realif', I don't think you're really a Jew at all.  Not religiously, not halachically.


Most of my instruction came from Judaism 101 site, by the way.  


I find that absolutely incredible - but then given your level of comprehension of any of our posts, I suppose it's possible you've misread everything from there.


Telling me I can't celebrate the holidays and believe in Yeshua isn't what I want to hear, you're right there.


 Nobody's been telling you that.  We've just explained that you are not a member of the 'Congregation of Israel' and that common decency requires that you refrain from presenting yourself at any synagogue and claiming to be a Jew.  Like I wouldn't go into a church and take communion!


Because you hold beliefs which are against Torah,  you cannot be included in our religious celebrations.  That doesn't mean you 'can't' celebrate Jewish holidays - but you assuredly aren't celebrating them as a Jew.  Because they do NOT mean for you what they mean to a Jew. 


By you, it's all about Jesus.  Which nobody is criticizing or arguing with.  It's just NOT appropriate for Judaism.


You are not 'religiously' a Jew, 'realif'.  IF you really wished to learn what being a Jew is about, you could find an actual Jewish synagogue and learn from them - IFF that's what you want to know.


Where do you live, anyway?  Because if you're not in the middle of nowhere, you could probably find a shul with an 'adult ed' course.  OR you could arrange to take one online.


I don't see the point of walking through Jewish ritual celebrations without any Judaism in one's heart.  How can you have kavanah in your prayer if you don't feel like a Jew going to worship YHVH, but are only after closeness with this one Jewish rabbi? 


You want something out of the experience, it seems to me, which Judaism isn't going to be able to give you.  simply put - you don't want to believe like a Jew, so why bother to pretend to worship like a Jew?


That's what 'celebrating the holidays' is, it's worship.  It's thanking YHVH for taking us out of Egypt, for strengthening the Maccabees, for allowing us to join His Sinai Covenant, for the Torah (both Written and Oral).


Now how can one thank YHVH for the Torah, while they set the NT alongside it as 'Scripture'?  That is like worshipping another beside YHVH......





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7 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 8:42PM #47
realif
Posts: 60

To each of you, thank you.  Leah I really am not concerned whether or not you think my mother was a Jew.  That's your right.  As for you John, this would have been an interesting subject to ponder.  Pagens have existed in the world and they are one of the oldest faiths beside the Buddist and Hindu's.  Abraham was taken out of Ur, and most of the world was Pagan at the time.  The atlas of the Ancient I possess shows that clearly.


I am concerned with the pagan worship that has crept into the Christian faith.  As for how it got there, I don't buy your explanation of it.  From what I have read, there were two factions alive and well after most of the apostles passed away.  One was the pagan churchs established by Paul and to whom his letters in the New Testament are addressed, and the churches who were led by Peter.   Constantine the new emperor of Rome called a meeting of all the heads of the then Churches that followed Yeshua.  He was then a pagen also, and because of his power as emperor his ideas and those of the pagan followers won.  The Jews were forced to either leave or were killed.  Now, this is the history that I have found even when the Catholic church claimed there wasn't any, it was all a blur.  If you would like to discuss it fine, I don't wish to be blamed for history as I have learned it.  In going to the Vatican site there are pictures of Constantine bringing money to the person in charge at the time.  All I know about pagans is they believe in multiple gods, I don't, and neither did Yeshua.  You have a right to your beliefs, I'm not into critizing what anyone believes, I just think it should be kept to itself an not be a part of anothers. 

Moderated by Merope on Apr 07, 2011 - 09:47PM
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 10:42PM #48
LeahOne
Posts: 18,418

" You have a right to your beliefs, I'm not into critizing what anyone believes, I just think it should be kept to itself an not be a part of anothers."


So does that mean you're going to apologize for carrying on at us Jews and telling us we 'should respect Jesus'  because *you* do?  And of course you won't be criticizing us for our beliefs again.


For someone who's 'not into criticizing what anyone believes', 'realif'  - you've certainly been doing it a heck of a lot!  Including all your comments about various of us 'pretending to be Jewish' and how 'you don't seem like Jews to me' and informing us that we're atheists.


I'm so glad to hear that you won't be abusing us that way anymore : ))

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7 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 11:33PM #49
johnacancienne
Posts: 7,314

Apr 7, 2011 -- 8:42PM, realif wrote:


To each of you, thank you.  Leah I really am not concerned whether or not you think my mother was a Jew.  That's your right.  As for you John, this would have been an interesting subject to ponder.  Pagens have existed in the world and they are one of the oldest faiths beside the Buddist and Hindu's.  Abraham was taken out of Ur, and most of the world was Pagan at the time.  The atlas of the Ancient I possess shows that clearly.



I'm pretty aware of the Pagans and their history. It's always good to know the history of your religion when and where you can find it. As for me, I am a follower of the Celtic path. The Celt flavor is found more in Scotland and Ireland today, and least the celebration of the old ways. My family were Gaulish, what is now France, and were conquered by Roman Pagans who simply assimilated their gods names into the the pantheon. That is until Christianity came along.... Oh well.


Apr 7, 2011 -- 8:42PM, realif wrote:

I am concerned with the pagan worship that has crept into the Christian faith.  As for how it got there, I don't buy your explanation of it.  From what I have read, there were two factions alive and well after most of the apostles passed away.



Are you aware that there were over 600 gospels, and other Christian works written during the first century of this fledgling religion? Have you ever wondered how the bible was reduced to only 66 books and half of that (the Old Testament) was not Christian in origin? There were a great many splinters, although they weren't called Christians at the time. In fact the story of Jesus changed just a bit too; going from rebellion leader to savior. The Jews called themselves  followers of "The Way". They were Jews in every sense of the word. They followed every one of the Jewish laws. In order for a Gentile convert to become a follower, he had to first convert to Judaism, which meant he had to follow all of the laws. Some followed what was known as the Noahide Law that allowed the Gentile to sit in the outer court of the Temple. Paul began converting the Gentile population and stressed to them mainly that they did not need to convert to Judaism. He began the doctrine of the law being nullified by the crucifixion, and thus no longer required converts to follow the dietary laws or have the males circumcised. Even with this, Jesus hadn't taken on a divine status.


Apr 7, 2011 -- 8:42PM, realif wrote:

One was the pagan church established by Paul and to whom his letters in the New Testament are addressed, and the churches who were led by Peter.



First Paul had nothing to do with the holidays that crept into the  church, or changing the date of Jesus' birth, or even celebrating him as  a god. He was instrumental in removing the laws for a prerequisite of  membership, but even at that, in his life time, he wasn't all that  successful in his ministry. His written work survived after the church  leadership in Jerusalem were martyred, and it was only after his death  did his ministry gain converts, if only through his letters.


Apr 7, 2011 -- 8:42PM, realif wrote:

Constantine the new emperor of Rome called a meeting of all the heads of the then Churches that followed Yeshua.  He was then a pagen also, and because of his power as emperor his ideas and those of the pagan followers won.  The Jews were forced to either leave or were killed.  Now, this is the history that I have found even when the Catholic church claimed there wasn't any, it was all a blur.


If you would like to discuss it fine, I don't wish to be blamed for   history as I have learned it.  In going to the Vatican site there are   pictures of Constantine bringing money to the person in charge at the   time.



The word Catholic means universal. Do you know why it was named that? It incorporated all of the religions found within the Roman Empire. You need to read up on the Councils of Naciea, and the Council of Trent. This is where the church as it is known today was born. In these councils, Jesus' birthday was changed to coincide with Yule, which is celebrates the new birth of the sun, or in Latin Sol. Imbolic represents a time of rebirth. It's in the spring time, and Easter, the supposed time of Jesus resurrection (rebirth) was named after Iastor a Roman goddess of fertility. It also coincides with the Jewish festival of Passover. These were the major changes all inspired by Constantine. He also urged the deification of Jesus.


If you go into the Vatican Archives and look up those particular councils, you'll see. Also, if you're really interested in the life and ministry of Jesus and Paul, I suggested already these books Rabbi Jesus and Rabbi Paul. Both were written by Bruce Chilton, a religious professor and religious history scholar who teaches at Bard Collage, as well as an Anglican Minister with a congregation in Barrytown, New York. Also to learn of the many factions of Christianity and their written work prior to the Orthodox canon you should look up the book Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman.


Now the Jews started taking a bum rap by Christians during Paul's ministry. I'm not too sure about the Jews having to "leave or be killed". I doubt they were ever a part of those councils. In fact I highly doubt it altogether. I do know that Jews were tolerated by the Romans a lot more than the early Christian followers were. But slowly the divide became greater and greater between Jews and Christians until they were totally separated. You have to remember that Paul, on top of being a converted Pharisee who persecuted Jews was also a Roman citizen. Rose Mary Sheldon a history/archeology teacher at Virginia Military Institute has a book out called Spies of the Bible. In it she suggests that Paul may have been a spy for the Roman Emperors to help destroy not the Jewish religion, but the Jesus Followers. Those were the ones who were out to convert all of the other religions into their new beliefs. There is another book called Operation Messiah where it centers only around Paul.


Apr 7, 2011 -- 8:42PM, realif wrote:

All I know about pagans is they believe in multiple gods, I  don't, and neither did Yeshua.  You have a right to your beliefs, I'm  not into critizing what anyone believes, I just think it should be kept  to itself an not be a part of anothers.



I wouldn't think of discussing my beliefs here on this thread, or even the forum. This place is here to discuss Messianic Judaism, not Paganism. What I have shared with you here on this post is how Christianity split from Judaism, and how the Jewish followers of The Way never considered Jesus as anything but a leader in the Jewish revolt of Roman rule, not a savior of souls. At least in the beginning. Not until Jesus was killed did that change, and he was called a savior of souls.


There's plenty of places to go here on Beliefnet to learn about Paganism if you're really interested.

It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 08, 2011 - 6:51PM #50
river8101
Posts: 5,587

Like whoever has read the Complete Talmud are mostly Jewish scholars, usually male, because for a long time the study of Talmud was limited to men over 40.   As to the Zohar and the Kabbalah,  that's been usurped by a guy named Berg, the fake, who got involved in it with Madonna, became very rich, sold lots of books and started some kind of following.  Generally not Jews.  They know the difference.    Having had a book store, I know the sort of people who bought Berg. It was the Berg family who repackaged an esoteric body of Jewish knowledge and made tons of money.  Those who bought into it were not Jews, most of them were hippies or idiots looking for magical answers.  And when I realized who they really were and what a fake they were, I stopped carrying his books.

Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on Apr 09, 2011 - 01:45PM
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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