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Switch to Forum Live View Is the Door Closed?
3 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2011 - 11:25AM #1
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,782

The following is a question for evangelicals and so called MJers.


Is the Door Closed?


“For which is a great nation that has a God who is close to it, as the  Lord our God whenever we call to Him?” (Deuteronomy 4:7). “The Lord is  close to all who call upon Him, to all who call upon Him sincerely”  (Psalm 145:18). “O Hearer of prayer, unto you does all flesh come”  (Psalm 65:3). “Trust in Him at every moment, O People! Pour out your  hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us, Selah” (Psalm 62:9).

All these words were spoken centuries before the advent of  Christianity. The prophets assured us that our Father in heaven hears  our prayers and answers them – if we but turn to Him with sincerity.


How then can we accept the claim of a man who says “… no one cometh  unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6)? This dark teaching is openly  refuted by the words of God’s prophets.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 11:29AM #2
realif
Posts: 60

That Rocket is your belief and you have an absolute right to believe it.  I on the other hand believe what the Hebrew scriptures wrote that a man would come to bring God's people forgiveness and I believe that man was Yeshua/Jesus Christ and I have the right to also believe that.  In the first century those who believed in Yeshua were Jews and only Jewish people were around to follow Him, therefore the term Messianic Jew was established.  Not all Jews believed in Him, just as many Jews today do not believe He even existed.  That's fine with me.  I have stated many, many many times that I do not believe in Yeshua as though He were a God, I have only one God, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 25, 2011 - 01:45AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 2:15PM #3
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Mar 24, 2011 -- 11:29AM, realif wrote:


I on the other hand believe what the Hebrew scriptures wrote that a man would come to bring God's people forgiveness


>>>>>> You didn't read this in any Hebrew Scriptures:  no man can bring YHVH's forgiveness.  Nor does anyone need a man to bring His forgiveness:  all we need to is repent of our wrongs and ASK.  Same as ever.


It is a LIE to pretend that Hebrew Scriptures say such things - for those ideas are OUTside of Jewish belief from Abraham's day onwards. It's essentially bearing false witness against our Scriptures - Scriptures which you yourself have apparently never sought to read in their non-Christianized form.


 and I believe that man was Yeshua/Jesus Christ and I have the right to also believe that. 


>>>>>>> And so you do.  What you do wrong to do, however, is to claim that such is or was ever a 'Jewish' belief.....


 In the first century those who believed in Yeshua were Jews and only Jewish people were around to follow Him,


>>>>>>>Anyone who reads the Book of Acts knows that this is NOT true!!!  It is OBVIOUS that by the time Paul is getting involved, in the 60's, there ARE already Gentile Jesus-followers.  While perhaps you *meant* to say 'the first GENERATION of followers' - even that could be debated.


 


 therefore the term Messianic Jew was established. 


>>>>>>>And here's another NOT true statement!!!  No such phrase is recorded in the earliest literature.  NOT EVEN ONCE.


 Not all Jews believed in Him,


>>>>>>>And no actual Jew who doesn't see your jesus as fully divine would ever use that capital 'h' ...... 


 just as many Jews today do not believe He even existed. 


>>>>>>>>>> One more NOT true 'statement'.  The FACT is, basically ALL actual Jews-practicing-Judaism *DO NOT CARE*  - because Jews see no reason to care about someone else's religious figure.


 That's fine with me,


>>>>>>>> If it were, you'd stop making NOT true statements about the Jewish view.  The Jewish view of Jesus is 'Don't know, don't care, not interested,  doesn't matter'.  The Jewish view of your jesus is NOT 'hate' or 'anger':  it is not even 'ignoring'.  Literally, for Jews its as though your jesus never existed.  As its as though Mohammed had never existed, or Buddha, or Mencius, or........


 


  I have stated many, many many times that I do not believe in Yeshua as though He were a God,


>>>>>>  But then you go bereges because we Jews, you believe, don't 'respect' your jesus .....You slam us as 'worshipping' Moshe Rabbenu and RaMbaM - which you should know would be 'idolatry' for us and the worst of all sins! - but then you have hissyfits that we don't 'respect' your jesus *more* than Moshe!!!


But you can't tell us WHY  any Jews should care about this jesus who isn't part of our faith.....


I have only one God, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.


>>>>>>So you state - but if you understood the meaning of 'idolatry' for Jews, you would know that not simply your view of jesus BUT your view of written Scripture amounts to 'idolatry' in Jewish terms. 





BTW:  The actual facts about the beginnings of your sect are on the other threads about MJ beliefs.  It is very clear that the first group was the late 19th C 'Mission to the Jews' of Evangelical Prostestant Churches.  The theological identity has basically not changed, and the MJAA group even acknowledges this origin.  The term 'MJ' was coined somewhere in the '70's  - as a CAMOFLAGE for the fact that the money and training were all from the EC Churches.  Just one more missionizing ploy.


I agree it's nothing to be proud of, coming out of a predatory effort by EC Churches to engage in spiritual genocide against the Jewish People - but the facts are the facts.


MAYBE there are some MJ congregations which have left the path of deception .....however, the 'umbrella 'groups are still true to their EC roots.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 25, 2011 - 01:44AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 5:44PM #4
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,782

Real


Thank you for your response, however, you did not answer the question.


Given that the Hebrew bible (which you claim as an authoritative source) unequivocally states that one may communicate directly with the divine, how do you support the necessity of an intervening entity (Jesus)?


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 6:18PM #5
realif
Posts: 60

I pray to the Father through Yeshua.  He sets our prayers before the Father.  I know Jews pray directly.  I don't see where how I pray affects anyone but the Father Yeshua and myself.  It is really no one elses concern.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 25, 2011 - 01:41AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2011 - 9:29PM #6
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Mar 24, 2011 -- 6:18PM, realif wrote:


I pray to the Father through Yeshua.  He sets our prayers before the Father



Well, no Jew believes we need any 'intermediary' or 'mediator' between us and YHVH.


 

Moderated by Merope on Mar 25, 2011 - 01:41AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 8:41PM #7
realif
Posts: 60

Why do you keep telling me that?  You can believe what you want to believe.  I believe Yeshua is the Messiah, I  believe He died for the forgiveness of my sins and the sins of all who believe in Him.  Why do you have such a problem with what I believe?  I'm not asking you to believe it. 


First of all He came to  the Jew first and then to everyone else.  There were only Jews that He taught there were no Christians, and for you to claim He never existed is foolish because there is a lot of proof that He did.

Moderated by Merope on Mar 26, 2011 - 03:27AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 25, 2011 - 9:07PM #8
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Mar 25, 2011 -- 8:41PM, realif wrote:


Why do you keep telling me that? 


Because it's an important element of Jewish belief which you seem ot be unable to understand.....


You can believe what you want to believe. 


Yup.  sure can!


 I believe Yeshua is the Messiah, I  believe He died for the forgiveness of my sins and the sins of all who believe in Him. 


Yes, I KNOW that.  And I also know that such beliefs arethe core of Christian beliefs.  And that they are no part of Judaism. 


Why do you have such a problem with what I believe? 


I don't:  as I and all the other Jews-practicing-Judaism have told you, our ONLY concern is that you've misrepresented your beliefs above as somehow having anything to do with actual Judaism.


 


I'm not asking you to believe it. 


Oh, so you don't think so?  What HAS been the point of your continued commotions here over the FACT that Judaism *ignores* whatever-it-was that you think jesus had to say?   What ELSE do you call it when you repeatedly INSIST that we Jews *should RESPECT Jesus* - and rant and complain because we respect RaMbaM?


 


First of all He came to  the Jew first and then to everyone else.


None of the actual Jews here gives a flying fig about that:  jesus is irrelevant to Judaism.


This is highly debatable:  it's by way of a technicality.  The 'Phonecian' woman, was she a Jew somehow?  Do you suppose she just ignored Jesus after he healed her daughter?


 and for you to claim He never existed is foolish


It's not one tenth as foolish as for you to keep pretending I stated that Jesus never existed.  It simply DOES NOT MATTER to Judaism, or to Jews.


because there is a lot of proof that He did.


There are no reliable historical accounts which are actually as contemporary as they are claimed to be.  The stuff in Josephus is a later interpolation.  The Gospel, like the Talmud, is a faith document and not a history text:  they are equally 'inadmissable' as historic documentation.



Moderated by Merope on Mar 26, 2011 - 03:29AM
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2011 - 12:37AM #9
realif
Posts: 60

First of all, just stop it, I'm tired of being accused of all this foolishness.  You don't accept the New Testament, but the New Testament is almost an exact copy of the Old because  it's what Yeshua used and also the writer of the various books.  You keep quoting the views of a pagan church which I no longer believe in and I would appreciate not being continually called a liar.  I was born the daughter of a Jewish women I am a Jew whether you like it or not, I don't have to pretend, I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  As a Jew I wish to continue believing in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua and I have that right.  That is not a pretense, that's who He was.  He lived, breathed and walked in the first century in Israel.  He didn't like the Jewish priests because He felt they were  not being honest with the Jews of the day, they were stealing from them for their own gain.


The story of Yeshua's birth has nothing to do with who He was and what He did, as far as I'm concerned He may have followed  God's teaching and married and even had children which would not have interfered in any way with what He taught.


Yeshua taught us the Lord's Prayer which said " Our Father who are in heaven, holy is your name.  Your kingdom come, your will be done. "  According to that prayer He taught us to pray directly to the Father.  I do pray at times to Yeshua, I also pray directly to the Father.


I am exactly who and what I state here, who and what are you.  You claim to be Jews are you Jews who cannot believe in what the Father commanded?  It was the Father who established the Hebrew faith.  He brought you into the fold as His people, apparently you don't like your history so you decided to block it out.  Not a good idea.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2011 - 11:38AM #10
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

Mar 27, 2011 -- 12:37AM, realif wrote:


First of all, just stop it, I'm tired of being accused of all this foolishness.


What 'foolishness' is that?  I cannot read your mind to know what you're upset about this time.


   You don't accept the New Testament, but the New Testament is almost an exact copy of the Old because  it's what Yeshua used and also the writer of the various books. 


NO, this is not accurate at all.  The NT has many quotes from the Hebrew Bible - but they are incomplete or distorted from the original text (and that can be proven, yes)  And the NT contains many concepts which are AGAINST TORAH - which makes it unworthy for Jews.


You keep quoting the views of a pagan church which I no longer believe in


NO, I keep quoting what YOU post when it's a Christian doctrine which is AGAINST TORAH:  it's YOUR beliefs I'm talking about when I tell you that Judaism has no room for an 'intercessor' (see a few posts above), or that 'substitutionary atonement' (= 'Jesus died for our sins") is an abomination to Judaism. 


 and I would appreciate not being continually called a liar. 


Then you need to be more careful about how you represent others' beliefs.


 I was born the daughter of a Jewish women I am a Jew whether you like it or not,


Let's sort this out:  You are *technically* a member of the Jewish People Your religious beliefs place you OUTSIDE of the 'Congregation of Israel', the religious community of Jewry.  It is forbidden to allow you to pray with us or to take Passover with us, so far as I understand the implications. 


I don't have to pretend, I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


You remain a Jew who has chosen NOT to seek out a Jewish education, NOT to learn what Jews believe.  And that ignorance shows itself in your posts:  you've attacked Moshes and Hillel and Maimonides, you've basically spit on the Oral Teachings (Talmud) as being 'fairy tales' - this doesn't seem like a person who has any love for Judaism!  


 As a Jew I wish to continue believing in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua and I have that right. 


Here's where the problems start:  The Congregation of Israel - Klal Yisroel - the aspect of Jewry which you've cast off, is who decide who's the Davidic Messiah of the Jews.  And we've decided Jesus is not it. 


 That is not a pretense, that's who He was.


I do not make these rules:  this is how the Jewish People have historically determined what was and was not within Judaism.  'WE' decided this one, and whoever chooses to believe otherwise is not RELIGIOUSLY speaking a Jew.


  He lived, breathed and walked in the first century in Israel.  He didn't like the Jewish priests because He felt they were  not being honest with the Jews of the day, they were stealing from them for their own gain.


Since there's no more priests officiating at Temple rites - this is a moot point now.


The story of Yeshua's birth has nothing to do with who He was and what He did, as far as I'm concerned He may have followed  God's teaching and married and even had children which would not have interfered in any way with what He taught.


Then how does 'divine DNA' become necessary???  Seems like a lot of trouble for GOD to go to - never before and never again - for absolutely NO DIFFERENCE (except to justify a Christian dogma which obviously originates in Pagan mystery rites....)


Yeshua taught us the Lord's Prayer which said " Our Father who are in heaven, holy is your name.  Your kingdom come, your will be done. "  According to that prayer He taught us to pray directly to the Father. 


Yes, that's a lovely prayer and it's used by many people.  It's what Jews do.  'Aveinu Malkeinu'.....  Our Father, Our King.


I do pray at times to Yeshua, I also pray directly to the Father.


Who calls themself a Jew and prays to any other but YHVH, commits idolatry.  The Jewish People are instructed to cast out any idolator who refuses to repent.


This is entirely YOUR choice, nobody else's. 


 


I am exactly who and what I state here,


Then according to Jewish religious law,  you are an idolator and presumably an apostate.  For it is crystal clear, that YHVH has commanded for Jews that we not pray to any other.  ANY other.


 who and what are you.


We are the Jews who know how to be Jews.  We've offered to teach you.


  You claim to be Jews are you Jews who cannot believe in what the Father commanded?


We DO believe in what Aveinu Malkeinu commanded:  it's YOU who prays to another!


 


  It was the Father who established the Hebrew faith.  He brought you into the fold as His people,


Where we faithfully remain, clinging to Torah both Written and Oral, for it is our Tree of Life.


 apparently you don't like your history so you decided to block it out.  Not a good idea.


And what is the above supposed to be about?  What 'your history' do you, the ignorant idolatrous apostate, imagine that we the Congregation of Israel have 'blocked out'?


And that 'Not a good idea'???   That doens't sound like the 'live and let live' and 'mutual respect' you were posting a few minutes earlier.....  I wish you'd settle down:  all this jumping around is disconcerting.


 





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