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Switch to Forum Live View My reaction to MJ. The holidays.
4 years ago  ::  Mar 21, 2011 - 12:40PM #1
Bezant
Posts: 1,338
I've twice recently visited a Messianic congregation.

The service was almost identical to an Evangelical charistmatic service, to my great surprise, but for the songs (entirely in Hebrew) and the reference to Jesus as Yeshoa. From what I could get from the temple/church's core theology, they seemed Christian. Bluntly, the congregation struck me as Christians pretending to be, or trying to be what they think is Jewish.

For one thing, the congregation leader/rabbi announced at the beginning of the service that a very important holiday was coming in a few weeks: Pesach, not Easter.

Why don't Messianics observe Easter? My objection is not celebrating Pesach or Purim, but celebrating Jewish holidays in favour of Christian ones.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 6:03PM #2
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

Bezant,


What are the so called Christian holidays and why should they be celebrated? Now I'm not asking this because I don't know, but I am asking to see if you know their origins?


Peter

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2011 - 6:14PM #3
realif
Posts: 60

Most Messianic congregation do not observe Christian holidays.  Christmas is not observed because December 25th was a Pagen holiday and is not the day Yeshua was born.  Easter, just the word Easter is taken from the name of a pagen Goddess.   In the Bible Yeshua was to be in the ground 3 days and 3 nights not 1 day and 2 nights, so again, we don't know the date of His death either.  Same holds true for Good Friday.  Jewish holidays were observed by Yeshua and the Apostles so it is appropriate for Messianics to observed them also.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2011 - 5:45AM #4
peterthesplitfish
Posts: 1,609

Realif,


This reminds me of the child in class who would answer everyone elses questions without raises their hand.


Peter

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2011 - 6:38PM #5
realif
Posts: 60

Sorry, you ask a foolish question you get a foolish answer.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 4:35PM #6
LeahOne
Posts: 16,350

I doubt the OP considered his question foolish:  he's a respectful and kind poster.


What I've found interesting about 'MJ' are the way they 'celebrate' the holidays NOT as relating to Judaism and the 'contemporary' history of the given holiday - but have inserted clearly 'anachronistic' and unJewish elements.  For example, at their version of a Pesach Seder, the three matzot in the napkin have an entirely foreign symbolism.....


So although they *say* they are celebrating Pesach - they are 'celebrating' centered on Jesus, which is hardly anything ordained about the holiday as set forth in Torah.  Nor does anything about Jesus appear in the Talmud discussions about Pesach.


In plain terms, they're using the 'label' of Pesach Seder for a very different content.  IMHO, that's simply 'bait and switch'....

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2011 - 8:24PM #7
realif
Posts: 60

If the holiday is centered on Yeshua it is centered on Judaism because Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi.  I'm sure you have attended all MJ services, which is why you are so knowledgable about them.


Peter, since you know and understand Christian holidays, why don't you celebrate them.  Could it be because you aren't Christian. 


I originally came to beliefnet to learn about Jewish holidays so I too could celebrate them. 


As a child I did not receive any teaching at home about any religion.  What information I received I got from singing in a choir in school which was at a time when you could sing about religious holidays in school.  My questions were honest, can you please enlighten me as to why they're so insulting to you.  If people have a right to be pagen, and christian and muslim, why don't I have a right to be Messianic Jew.  Your opinion, which is basically all you claim here is you don't like Messianic Jews, because in your opinion Jews don't believe in Yeshua, but thats only your opinion.


My mother was a Jew, my father was Christian, if you were me what would you believe?

Moderated by Bunsinspace on Apr 08, 2011 - 03:09PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2011 - 9:25AM #8
LeahOne
Posts: 16,350

Apr 3, 2011 -- 8:24PM, realif wrote:


If the holiday is centered on Yeshua it is centered on Judaism because Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi.


NO.  Because your Jesus is NOT!!! the center of Judaism - no human is nor could be.  Especially when the 'holiday' makes Jesus out to be the same as YHVH.  The  idea that a celebration fits into Jewish doctrine (such as we have, lol!) and beliefs simply because the name of a particular rabbi is mentioned, is simplistic nonsense.


In order to be 'Jewish', a celebration has to be about *Jewish* beliefs - some guy 'taking away our sin'  is simply NOT a part of the Jewish belief nor ever has been.


Peter, since you know and understand Christian holidays, why don't you celebrate them.  Could it be because you aren't Christian. 


Is that really any of your business?  


I originally came to beliefnet to learn about Jewish holidays so I too could celebrate them. 


Really?  Is there ANYONE else who can substantiate this allegation of yours?  All I've seen has been quite different:  you've been busy telling us Jews what we 'ought' to do - specifically you've complained a LOT about us not 'respecting' your Jesus, in between accusing us of 'worshipping' Maimonides and Hillel.....just as you've accused the RC of worshipping Mary and of 'praying to their priests'.


As a child I did not receive any teaching at home about any religion.  What information I received I got from singing in a choir in school which was at a time when you could sing about religious holidays in school. 


Is that where you got your 'info' about Catholics worshipping Mary and praying to their priests?  And is that where you got the lowdown on how we Jews 'worship' such sages as Maimonides and Hillel?  Oh, and the notion that it's *forbidden* to read Talmud, that Talmud is evil?


 My questions were honest, can you please enlighten me as to why they're so insulting to you. 


What's so very curious about that, 'realif', is that Talmud in Judaism is 'the Oral Teachings', as in what Christianity refers to as 'Law'.  No Jew of any tradition would spit on Talmud as you have, calling it 'fairy tales' and such.


Why have you REPEATEDLY told Jewish posters that we don't know our own religion - when you admit you never learned anything about it yourself?


Where's the logic in going to learn about Judaism from Christians - in this case, meaning anyone who deifies Jesus?


Gee, 'realif' - don't you understand that when you posted to me that I don't believe in my religion, that I'm an atheist, that GOD had turned His back on me - and I had no chance of salvation whatsoever! -  don't you understand that that was insulting?


It was actually insulting to the intelligence of every reader who realized that you know NOTHING of Judaism and have no capacity to 'evaluate' my sucess or failure at seeking to live Torah. 


 If people have a right to be pagen, and christian and muslim, why don't I have a right to be Messianic Jew.


You have a right to label yourself whatever you wish - and we have the right to not agree.  There is a 'public' definition of 'MJ' :  it exists as a set of stated beliefs of GROUPS which call themselves 'MJ'.  And by your own words, you do NOT share those beliefs - the trinity, divinity of Jesus.  So, it's illogical for you to claim you are part of MJ. 


As another issue:  Jews have the right to determine 'who is a Jew'.  And we've explained this over and over and over.  So ONE MORE TIME:


IFF your mother was the daughter of a Jewish woman who did not convert from Judaism before she was born, and your own mother didn't convert out -then you are a member of the Jewish People.


BUT:  While you believe in concepts which are alien and OPPOSED to Jewish theology, you can NOT be a member of Klal Yisroel, the 'Congregation of Israel'.  That is the 'mega-congregation' of all Jews-practicing-Judaism.  And that is who decides who is and isn't a Jew. 


It's NOT!!!  'my opinion':  it's the conviction of every Jew who worships in a real synagogue.  When you add the Christian NT as 'Scripture' - THAT IS 'AVODAH ZARA'.


I don't see how much plainer I can make it.  You call something unacceptable to Judaism - ALL Judaism! - 'Scripture'.   How can you be practicing Judaism when all those anti-Torah concepts are part of your beliefs?


You're entitled to practice whatever is meaningful to you.  Just DO NOT pretend to us that you are practicing Judaism. 


Your opinion, which is basically all you claim here is you don't like Messianic Jews, because in your opinion Jews don't believe in Yeshua, but thats only your opinion.


This is a whole mess of falsehoods.  First of all, it's not anyone's "opinion" - go check out any site of REAL Judaism, and see what they have to say about 'MJ' and Jesus and such.  There are DOZENS of sites to look through - and every last Jewish one will tell you the same as the Jews here have stated.


So stop misrepresenting our doctrine as 'opinion' - THAT is insulting.


As to what we like or don't like, you need to admit that you can't read minds so there's no way you could know without asking and trusting that we are giving an honest reply - and are not self-deceived.


My mother was a Jew, my father was Christian, if you were me what would you believe?


I'd believe whatever I believed:  biology is not religious destiny.  My husband's parents were both Christians:  he's not. 





Moderated by Bunsinspace on Apr 08, 2011 - 03:13PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 9:45PM #9
realif
Posts: 60

Leah I never asked anyone here for permission to be Jewish.  I don't need your permission I am.  Now, I will believe in Yeshua, I'm not going to change which is why I'm on a Messianic Jewish board.  I you don't like Messianic Jews that is your problem, not mine.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 07, 2011 - 10:30PM #10
LeahOne
Posts: 16,350

'realif', I'm sure you were trying to say something in that last post but I couldn't quite make it out......

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