Mar 18, 2011 -- 10:34PM, peterthesplitfish wrote:

Mar 18, 2011 -- 9:36PM, 57 wrote:

Mar 18, 2011 -- 6:56PM, Nay_ho_tze wrote:

Hebrews 9:27 refers to the body -
not the spirit -
spirit is eternal.

Exactly.  You spirit only gets one body.   One life. 

That is what the church teaches; however, in the original Gospel written by James "The Just" there was a passage that dealt with this. The Gentile church of the Greek/Roman model edited and removed much about this because it was very foreign to them.

I doubt it. 

That is the model you are basing your beliefs on not the model that Yeshua set forth.

The Gospels are the "Models" Jesus set forth.  When it says if you believe in Jesus Christ..you shall not perish but have eternal life.

The model is this, according to the bible  it is Christ who saves you.  It is not you working off some sort of karma.    

There are still clues in the NT about the idea of soul-rebirth and soul transmigration from one life to another. Why do think there was so much confusion about Yochanon (John) the Baptizer and who he was?

If I remember correctly John the Baptist said no. He wasn't. 

Job speaks of it to where one travels from house to house and the house being your body not a literal house.

Can you present a chapter and verse?

People didn't move like that back then...there weren't companies moving people around the globe in some international market.

If you are interested, I will quote the passage from another gospel source that was discovered and contains many of the passages, chapters, and concepts left out of what we have today in the canonized four. The Gospel of Thomas also speaks of it as well.

To be honest I doubt anything was removed.  If reincarnation is true..then there would be no need for the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross.  The two simply don't mix.   

Peter

Mar 19, 2011 -- 1:19AM, Nay_ho_tze wrote:

57 writes: Exactly.  You [sic] spirit only gets one body.   One life.

...that's right.
One body per lifetime.

Listen, for as many biblical quotes against reincarnation,
there are as many which support reincarnation ...
for instance, how quickly Christians dismiss Jesus himself,
when he identifies the Baptist as Elijah ...

No he doesn't. It speaks of John's office . 

MAT 11:14     
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

later on...

MAT 16:14     They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; 
others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
They speak of the "office"  It would be like calling a new slugger..
the "Babe Ruth" of baseball.

As  we continue we see Elijah still has a body:

MAT 17:3      
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

57 writes: If I remember correctly John the Baptist said no. He wasn't. 
As I recall,
it was Jesus who identified the Baptist thusly ...
and I don't think the Baptist would've contradicted Jesus -
besides the Baptist was already dead ...
(I do know that the Baptist was asked 
if he were the Messiah,
and to that he said, no -
maybe that's where you're confused ...)

No, I'm not confused.

JOH 1:21      They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" 
He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" 
He answered, "No."

...but y'know what?
Trading biblical 'documentation' serves no-one,
and certainly isn't the intention of this multi-faith forum,
so, donning my hostie hat,
I'm going to suggest that we back away from this slippery slope
in order to stay within this forum's local guidelines.

57 writes: If reincarnation is true...
then there would be no need for the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross. 
Jesus didn't die for our sins -
he died to show us 
how to die for our own sins,
how to take personal responsibility 
for our own transgressions against God.
It's very appealing that someone else should die for one's sins,
hence the popularity of mainstream Christianity.
It also explains the unpopularity of reincarnation,
which requires personal atonement -

I really don't know where you are getting this stuff from 
but it certainly isn't even close to what the bible teaches. 

The bible is quite clear that YOU can't pay for your own sins.  
That's why there is the need for the grace and mercy of God. 

It's all a matter of perspective ...
the trick is in honouring one's personal perspective,
as well as those which differ from ours.

I hear you perspective and understand you have the right 
to  believe in whatever you want to believe. 

I have no problem with that.  I came here to ask a question..
about whether or not a demon could trick one into believing in reincarnation. 

You and I have two very different perspectives -
but I will fight by your side
for your right to keep your perspective.
After all, we're all on the same mountain -
just climbing different faces.

But you forget..I have no mountain to climb.  
In fact there is no mountain to climb.  
My spirit will spend eternity with the  God who reached down for me.  
He reached past all of your mountains.  

NHT
=]

57,

In Chapter 37 of the Nazirene Gospel, Yeshua is explaining to Nicodemus about heavenly things and explaining Job to Him:

Chapter 37

The Re-Generation of the Soul

[See John 3:1-13]

1. Yeshua {Jesus} sat in the porch of the temple, and some came to learn His doctrine, and one said to Him,

"Master, what do you teach concerning life?"

2. And He said to them,

"Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they will be made perfect through suffering; they will be as the angels of God in heaven and will die no more. Neither will they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over them. [* 37:2] 3. They who have suffered and have overcome will be made pillars of the temple of my God, and they will go out no more [**] I say to you, 'Except you be born again of water and of fire, you cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

4. And a certain Rabbi, Nicodemus, camd to Him by night for fear of the Yehudim {Judaeans/Jews}, and said to Him,

"How can a man be born again when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?"

5. Yeshua {Jesus} answered

"Except a man be born again of flesh and of spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God. The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound of it, but can not tell from where it comes or to where it goes. 6. The light shines from the East even to the West; out of the darkness. The sun rises and sets into darkness again; so it is with man, from ages to ages. 7. When it cometh from the darkness, it is that he has lived before, and when it goes down again into darkness, it is that he may rest for a little, and there after again exist. 8. So through many changes must you be made perfect, as it is written in the book of Iyov {Job},

'I am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until I come into the city and mansion which is eternal.'" [**] [Iyov {Job} 9:2]

9. And Nicodemus said to him,

"How can these things be?"

And Yeshua {Jesus} answered,

"You are a teacher in Yisrael {Israel}, and do not understand these things? Truly, we speak that which we know, and bear witness to that which we have seen, and you do not receive our witness. 10. If I tell you of earthly things, and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you of heavenly things? No one ascends into heaven, unless they descened out of Heaven, even the son or daughter of man which is in Heaven."

* See Revelation 3:12

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out..."

37:2 "Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they will be made perfect through suffering, they will be as teh angels of God in heaven and will die no more. Neither will they be born any more, for death and birth have no more dominion over them."

(This is in reference to the reincarnation of the soul until it has been made perfect through its many experiences.)

** According to the Septuagint (LXX), Job 9:2 reads:

After a long time had passed, Job's wife said, "How long wilt thou be patient, saying, 'Lo, let me endure yet a while, awaiting the hope of my salvation? For behold, they memorial is vanished from the earth, even sons and daughters, the throes and labors of my womb, for whom I have wearied myself in vain with toils: and thou thyself in corruption of worms sittest all night in the open air, while I am a wanderer and a servant, from place to place, and from house to house, awaiting the sun when it will set, that I may rest from my labors and the pains which now straiten me': but say some word against the Lord, and die."

--And 57, while you may say that this is not canon scripture, the church's dogma and doctrines trace much of their own on non-canon scripture picking and chosing as they so do to gain the upper hand of those who do not in fact become a seeker as Yeshua wished for his followers. He did not find them, they found him. The whole of the church is backward in seeking out converts to bring in while Yeshua welcomed only those who came to him openly and willingly to change who they were and follow the Laws as taught by Moshe {Moses} and reiterated by Him. The images of Heaven and Hell we have today are not based upon Jewish scripture, but based upon later writings that the church both condemned as heresy and yet used to judge others through fear so as to control them. I am not under the control of any church, but I am a free man trying to live in accord with the Laws coming to understand that the church does not have a monopoly on my beliefs nor will it ever.

Godspeed, TheWay,

Peter

The man I know who was James, Mathias, the real Mohamed, Francis, and Thomas Paine has not endured a public humiliation because the Laws do not deem it so for him to have to endure such a witch hunt. Many who do claim this and that are often under the influence of a discarnate spirit feeding into them because that discarnate spirit is often attached to something their past. There are even false past lives as their are false lives, and this is often where discernment can aid a person of higher understanding. I have met people who thought they were Hitler, only they were born before Hitler died. You can see that the math there does not work. And as there are false teachers in this area so there are false teachers in churches, synogues, mosques, or anywhere else a person can use to control others and keep them under and spell, but the Laws deal with such people. Where in one life they might control one, in another they might be the controlled one. This is what is called a kharmic loop. I've met many people who are stuck in such loops unable to escape because of their unwillingness to change at their root level.

Peter

Mar 20, 2011 -- 2:09PM, Janadele wrote:

It would be foolish to publicly reveal having lived a past life which is famous in history.  One would become a media circus.

As well as the butt of unbelievable ridicule akin to the bad jokes and nasty remarks made by comedians and others after actress Shirley MacLaine "came out" as a New Ager.

I don't have Shirley's clout and thus would not discuss any past life as a famous person which I felt I'd had.

What's the point other than attempting to wow people and gain a few moments of fleeting and vain glory?

As Thoreau said in another context, the vast majority of the past life stories I've read or had told to me were lives of "quiet desperation."

The benefit of such a past life would arise out of what you can learn from it so as to do a better job spiritually in this lifetime. Your point of power is now, and most of the rest is windowdressing, IMO.