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7 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2011 - 1:40PM #1081
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Sep 11, 2011 -- 7:01PM, koala972 wrote:

hi christine,


ok so I admit magic isn't such a good word to use :).  I get a little loose with my words sometimes!


 





That's okay, you don't have to apologize.  I'm just trying to understand how you are using the word 'magic'.

There is also another aspect of the crucifixion story to explore.  Why is there a differing story in the Gospel of Judas?  The Gospel of Judas talks about Jesus and Judas making a plan in which Jesus wants Judas to hand him over to the authorities, which is why Jesus doesn't leave the area?

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 12, 2011 - 7:26PM #1082
koala972
Posts: 879

Sep 12, 2011 -- 1:40PM, christine3 wrote:

Sep 11, 2011 -- 7:01PM, koala972 wrote:


hi christine,


ok so I admit magic isn't such a good word to use :).  I get a little loose with my words sometimes!


 





That's okay, you don't have to apologize.  I'm just trying to understand how you are using the word 'magic'.  There is also another aspect of the crucifixion story to explore.  Why is there a differing story in the Gospel of Judas?  The Gospel of Judas talks about Jesus and Judas making a plan in which Jesus wants Judas to hand him over to the authorities, which is why Jesus doesn't leave the area?




well if you could do miracles some people might think it was magic.


well either Jesus and Judas did get to gether and plan something (which is somewhat embarrasing to judas because I think the flip side was according to the story Jesus told him his tribe would have power over all the other tribes in the times to come) or judas was pulling yet another betrayal.  I'm not sure which...


as far as why jesus would make such a plan with judas the books don't really give much info...


 

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 8:00AM #1083
christine3
Posts: 9,274
"well if you could do miracles some people might think it was magic."
_______

I have heard the word 'magic' used to describe miracles, I think by the Golden Dawn people.  I thought I should look up the word magic to get a clearer definition of the word.  Here's what came up in the dictionary:

mag·ic/ˈmajik/

Adjective: Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".
Noun: The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural powers.

Then, I thought to look up the word 'miracle'. 

mir·a·cleNoun/ˈmirikəl/

1. A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.
2. A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment.

You know, it is awfully difficult for me to put feelings about the present reality we all live into words.  I know exactly what Plato's Cave is because I live ouside of the cave everyday.  To try and put my reality into words that is so different from the reality people experience, is not an easy task.  My language skills are not that good.  But besides mediocre language skills, everybody knows what it is like to try and explain something to someone who hasn't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and even thinks you are crazy.  But you must press on because there is nothing else worthwhile to live for.

The thing that strikes me about the definition of miracle (Noun) 1. and 2., is that face on it is not even true.  Well, "a surprising and welcome event" is true, but the rest of 1. is wholly untrue.  The dictionary definition of a miracle is that it it is not explicable by natural laws, which leads us to believe perhaps that it is not a function of natural laws.  Did the person who wrote this definition that influences billions of people get himself (or herself) so separated from what are natural laws so as not to be able to see a connection with what are natural laws?

Also, I can do without the "scientific" part of the definition, because science is only the study of the natural law, not the law itself.  And also the word divine right there puts a separation in peoples' minds as to what is divine and what is not divine.  So we are left with 'divine' as opposed to 'natural laws'? 

Then looking at 2., a 'natural law' is a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development or accomplishment?  Has the artificial reality disconnect gotten so far into our brains that we consider a natural law as highly improbable...hence a miracle?

This is the problem of Plato's Cave.  A person the ilk of Jesus comes in from the outside trying to teach them what he is experiencing as reality, and they kill him because he violates their reality, their ultimate self loathing and death wish. 

You will look at the descendants of John the Baptist, who are the Mandaeans and Sabians who have not changed their way of life for 2,000 years.  Until within the last 20 or so years, having been displaced by 'progress'.  Their view of reality is what they call The Great Life, simply The Great Life.  They were recently forced out of their homelands, having been displaced by Middle Eastern wars originating with Saddam Hussein's regime and the United States occupation to protect Capitalism in that part of the world.  Some of them have migrated to the United States and are most likely experiencing profound culture shock and will become assimilated into the Western culture (which is not a good thing in my opinion).

They are a Monotheistic people (belief in one God), and I would venture to say that their idea of one God (one reality as a unified principle throughout the whole), is wholly different that the modern idea of one God.  Western culture has been taught to believe God is outside of the natural laws of the universe.  Why, 'He' is even wholly masculine, and the feminine part of God has been relegated to some outside island of existence, totally disconnected from the mainland, so to speak.  Modern conception of the one God is that there is God over there out there somewhere, and then there is us in the physical world.  In other words, we are not divine. 

Most people do believe that we are not divine because we have been taught that we are first and foremost, sinners.  Have they believed the lie?  Yes.  This is dualism, not monotheism.   And we should pray to this God outside of us to perform miracles in our lives, because we certainly cannot do these unnatural things (or connect with these natural laws) for ourselves!  This is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 13, 2011 - 9:28PM #1084
koala972
Posts: 879

well i never agreed myself that the definition of 'miracle' as being something only God can do and that it is some kind of abrogation of the laws.  But I find you can't argue with people who have a vested interest in believing what they want.


 


 

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2011 - 6:53AM #1085
jesus2point3
Posts: 248

Sep 13, 2011 -- 8:00AM, christine3 wrote:

"well if you could do miracles some people might think it was magic."
_______

I have heard the word 'magic' used to describe miracles, I think by the Golden Dawn people.  I thought I should look up the word magic to get a clearer definition of the word.  Here's what came up in the dictionary:

mag·ic/ˈmajik/

Adjective: Used in magic or working by magic; having or apparently having supernatural powers: "a magic wand".
Noun: The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural powers.

Then, I thought to look up the word 'miracle'. 

mir·a·cleNoun/ˈmirikəl/

1. A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.
2. A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment.

You know, it is awfully difficult for me to put feelings about the present reality we all live into words.  I know exactly what Plato's Cave is because I live ouside of the cave everyday.  To try and put my reality into words that is so different from the reality people experience, is not an easy task.  My language skills are not that good.  But besides mediocre language skills, everybody knows what it is like to try and explain something to someone who hasn't the foggiest idea what you are talking about, and even thinks you are crazy.  But you must press on because there is nothing else worthwhile to live for.

The thing that strikes me about the definition of miracle (Noun) 1. and 2., is that face on it is not even true.  Well, "a surprising and welcome event" is true, but the rest of 1. is wholly untrue.  The dictionary definition of a miracle is that it it is not explicable by natural laws, which leads us to believe perhaps that it is not a function of natural laws.  Did the person who wrote this definition that influences billions of people get himself (or herself) so separated from what are natural laws so as not to be able to see a connection with what are natural laws?

Also, I can do without the "scientific" part of the definition, because science is only the study of the natural law, not the law itself.  And also the word divine right there puts a separation in peoples' minds as to what is divine and what is not divine.  So we are left with 'divine' as opposed to 'natural laws'? 

Then looking at 2., a 'natural law' is a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development or accomplishment?  Has the artificial reality disconnect gotten so far into our brains that we consider a natural law as highly improbable...hence a miracle?

This is the problem of Plato's Cave.  A person the ilk of Jesus comes in from the outside trying to teach them what he is experiencing as reality, and they kill him because he violates their reality, their ultimate self loathing and death wish. 

You will look at the descendants of John the Baptist, who are the Mandaeans and Sabians who have not changed their way of life for 2,000 years.  Until within the last 20 or so years, having been displaced by 'progress'.  Their view of reality is what they call The Great Life, simply The Great Life.  They were recently forced out of their homelands, having been displaced by Middle Eastern wars originating with Saddam Hussein's regime and the United States occupation to protect Capitalism in that part of the world.  Some of them have migrated to the United States and are most likely experiencing profound culture shock and will become assimilated into the Western culture (which is not a good thing in my opinion).

They are a Monotheistic people (belief in one God), and I would venture to say that their idea of one God (one reality as a unified principle throughout the whole), is wholly different that the modern idea of one God.  Western culture has been taught to believe God is outside of the natural laws of the universe.  Why, 'He' is even wholly masculine, and the feminine part of God has been relegated to some outside island of existence, totally disconnected from the mainland, so to speak.  Modern conception of the one God is that there is God over there out there somewhere, and then there is us in the physical world.  In other words, we are not divine. 

Most people do believe that we are not divine because we have been taught that we are first and foremost, sinners.  Have they believed the lie?  Yes.  This is dualism, not monotheism.   And we should pray to this God outside of us to perform miracles in our lives, because we certainly cannot do these unnatural things (or connect with these natural laws) for ourselves!  This is the opposite of what Jesus taught.


Some people believe one thing, and others think another, but if you want to know the truth, you've gotta' understand the words. If GOD is the Divine Reality that transcends both space & time, and the Creator of the seen & unseen, then it is quite obvious that no man can be divine. This has nothing to do with being a sinner or not.


We are merely finite beings, all of us born to die, and the truth is that we create nothing from nothing. What we do is manipulate reality, both the physical & conceptual. Which once again means we're not divine, we're all just everyday people - both you & I.


GOD as a concept is understood by many peoples, but how they define the deity, comes in many flavors. In reality none of this CHANGEs the truth, regardless what you HOPE for. Plato's Cave is an imaginary place, that won't help you cope with reality, and what makes you believe we are a self loathing people who have a death wish? Mind you, some do, but most are merely trying to survive at the moment, and live another day.


Dualism is a reality that true Monotheism won't deny, because the truth isn't all in your head. You can find it in the light, if you open your mind.  

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2011 - 11:34AM #1086
christine3
Posts: 9,274
"Some people believe one thing, and others think another, but if you want to know the truth, you've gotta' understand the words. If GOD is the Divine Reality that transcends both space & time, and the Creator of the seen & unseen, then it is quite obvious that no man can be divine. This has nothing to do with being a sinner or not."
_______
I understand the words.  The ultimate God is within and outside of everything.  God is expressed in an infinite number of ways, in an infinite number of dimensions.
_______
"We are merely finite beings, all of us born to die, and the truth is that we create nothing from nothing. What we do is manipulate reality, both the physical & conceptual. Which once again means we're not divine, we're all just everyday people - both you & I."
_______
I see it differently.  Instead of a linear concept, I have a nonlinear concept.  Linear: could be described as, the way things line up in this world's concepts.  One thing follows another, i.e., beginning-end.  Nonlinear: could be described as not of this world's concepts.  For instance, have you heard it said: "God is a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere".  Therefore, I do not think in terms of my finitetude, but that my life cycle is also infinite.
_______
"GOD as a concept is understood by many peoples, but how they define the deity, comes in many flavors. In reality none of this CHANGEs the truth, regardless what you HOPE for. Plato's Cave is an imaginary place, that won't help you cope with reality, and what makes you believe we are a self loathing people who have a death wish? Mind you, some do, but most are merely trying to survive at the moment, and live another day."
_______
I agree.  True, generalities can never speak for individuals.  I was only speaking for the controlling destructive concepts which reign supreme in this world, those concepts which make us have to fight everyday to realize truths.  Think of it, we have to fight and struggle everyday to live those truths in an outward fashion...but at the end of the day, those truths are only lived out in our minds, hopes and dreams, as of yet.  Dismal, isn't it?  By self-loathing, I was speaking nonlinearly, in that there is ultimately one person on this planet.  The human gamut is huge; we are individual expressions of what it is to have human consciousness and live in a human body.  If this one person seeks to confuse and kill itself, it cannot be loving itself.  Not loving oneself, causing perpetual weakness and death of ourselves, and daily divising cleverer and more devious ways to kill and take advantage, is actually self-hate, self-loathing.  The Most High concepts of the infinite universe are not lived out in a daily manner on this planet.  If you look at the gamut of all the worlds and all consciousness in "God's" infinite universe, this is one of the hell worlds.  I don't mean to be depressing, (I depress myself with such thoughts and have to move away from them!)  But I am trying to make a point so that you KNOW what I am fighting for daily.....the freedom of ALL on this planet. 

Of course, individuals like you and I are not self-loathing, we do not cheat our neighbors, we do not want to capture, dominate and steal from, we do not think how to out-smart our own family members and make them weak.  But if this world and life is not paradise, it is not of the most high concepts of the infinite universe.  It is not embracing the concept of "God" being the center of everything with no circumference.  The people who rule and own (*think* they own this planet) are opposed to the most ancient of ancients who have lived on this planet, who had no concept of ownership of or claiming of anything, not even our thoughts.  We have traces of memory of that time within us.  Everything I do in this life is pushing my way past the obstacles, going back to that place.
_______
"Dualism is a reality that true Monotheism won't deny, because the truth isn't all in your head. You can find it in the light, if you open your mind."  
_______
The nonlinear conceptual Monotheism of "on earth as it is in heaven" did not mean heaven as a place, but heaven as concept.  After all, we have concepts about heaven, and therein is the reality.  It was the most high consciousness which could be lived in a conscious and daily expression in the hear and now.   Aren't we talking about the same thing?

I'll look at the YouTube, thanks.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2011 - 11:43AM #1087
christine3
Posts: 9,274
Jesus2.3, nice video!  Somebody had quite an experience, quite an experience!

Shouldn't this type of discussion be more over at MultiFaith or InterFaith?
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7 years ago  ::  Oct 11, 2011 - 5:49AM #1088
BDboy
Posts: 8,220

Sep 15, 2011 -- 11:43AM, christine3 wrote:

Jesus2.3, nice video! Somebody had quite an experience, quite an experience! Shouldn't this type of discussion be more over at MultiFaith or InterFaith?



 


>>>>>>>> It was in the "Hot topic zone" for a while before moderators moved it over here. People from all faiths took part in it.

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