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Switch to Forum Live View About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
4 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2011 - 1:40PM #1
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

Bs'd


 


About who does Isaiah 53 speak?


 


Some misguided souls think that Isaiah 53 speaks about JC. 


 


This of course is a horrible mistake.


 


Read here about who it does speak:  mountzion.freewebpage.org/Isaiah53.html


 


 


Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!"   Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!"    Mica 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of God from Jerusalem."   Isaiah 2:3,  Mica 4:2

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2011 - 7:45PM #2
MMarcoe
Posts: 16,417

Good article. It makes the case that Isaiah 53 refers to the people of Israel, not Jesus. I wish people would understand that it was the Jews who wrote Isaiah, and if it really were about Jesus, they would have made the connection unmistakable. And yet people insist on mincing words and squeezing meaning out of them.


Here's the text of the article:


 


 


Isaiah 53


 


-------According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?


Nothing.


There is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that the servant of God, mentioned in Isaiah 53, is the messiah. In the authentic messianic prophecies there is always a sign that it talks about the messiah, the anointed king. ("messiah" means "anointed one") In the real messianic prophecies it speaks about a king, or about a ruler, or about a descendend of David, or about a descendend of Isai, the father of David. But here in Isaiah 53 is nothing like that. Also the word "messiah" is not used in Isaiah 53. There is not the slightest hint toward a messiah. It just speaks about the servant of God. And NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible, is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God". So Christianity is making up fairy tales here.


Besides this, saying Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah runs into several problems. The prophet Isaiah is talking in the present/past tense; verse 3 and 4: “He is despised and rejected of men” “We hid as it were our faces from him, he was despised, and we esteemed him not” It goes on like this in the past tense up to verse ten. This is not the way the prophets announce future events, by saying that they already happened. The King James Version says in verse 2: "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant." Future tense. However; this is wrong. Here is absolutely positively spoken in the past tense. Compare the Revised Standard Version, it gives this verse correctly in the past tense. A quick course in exegesis for confused Christians: When a prophet speaks in the past tense, then he speaks about events that happened already. This is commonly called 'History'. Prophecy is about things that are going to happen in the future. History is the opposite of prophecy. Therefore, when a prophet speaks in the past tense, he is not prophesizing. These elementary facts were well known to the people whom translated the KJV, therefore they corrupted the translation and changed past tense to future tense, so that they could squeeze in Jesus.


When the prophet Isaiah switches to the future tense, he describes events that are not applicable to Jesus; verse 10: “When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,” He was not married, how is he going to see his seed?


Verse 12: “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” This essential part he did not fulfill. Only the simple part he did, as usually; being sick, suffering, dying; the part that can apply to millions of people, and the key part is going to happen in some unknown future.


 


 


But who is the "servant of God" in Isaiah 53?


 


Let us now take a look about who the prophet Isaiah is really talking here. Isaiah 52:13; “Behold My servant shall deal prudently ….” The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:


Isaiah 41:8: “But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.”


Isaiah 44:1-2; “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.”


Isaiah 44:21; “Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me


Isaiah 45:4; “For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.”


Isaiah 48:20; “The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.”


Isaiah 49:3; “And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”


 


The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.


 


If you are honestly searching for the truth, then read Isaiah from say chapter 40 all the way to the end, chapter 66, and see that all the time Isaiah is speaking about the people of Israel. There is not the slightest indication that in chapter 52 verse 13 he suddenly jumps to the messiah. As a matter of fact, there is no indication whatsoever that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. It does not speak about a king, it does not speak about a descendent of David or Jesse, nowhere is the word 'messiah' used; there is no proof or indication for the messiah at all.


XXXXThe strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42. This is also claimed by the NT as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 12:16-21; "And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."


This is a quote from Isaiah 42, applied by the NT to JC. Now read here the whole chapter of Isaiah 42 and see that it speaks all the time about the servant of God, see who is that servant of God, and see that it does not speak about the messiah:


xxxx"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."


As you see, saying JC was the servant doesn't fit very well: "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."


According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises.


It is here literally spelled out who is the servant that Isaiah talks about: "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"


Where it says "But this is a people", (some translations say: But it is a people), there it says in the original Hebrew: we-hu am bazuz. That is literally translated: "And HE is a robbed nation/people." The 'he' refers to the servant in the previous verse. The following verses identify that nation as the people of Israel: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"


We see here that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: " But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"


We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.


So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah. 


The same holds true for Isaiah 53.   Also there the context speaks about the people of Israel:  Isaiah 52:4 "For thus says the Lord God: MY PEOPLE  went down at the first into Egypt to sojourn there, and the Assyrian oppressed them for nothing."


Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore MY PEOPLE shall know my name; therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here am I."


Isaiah 52:9 "Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem; for the LORD has comforted HIS PEOPLE, he has redeemed Jerusalem."


Please read Isaiah 52 from the beginning, and see that it speaks about the redemption of Israel, and Israel being released from captivity and returning from exile. The very last verse right before the place from where Christianity claims it speaks about the messiah, speaks about Israel going out of exile: Isaiah 52:12 "For you shall not go out in haste, and you shall not go in flight, for the LORD will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard."  And after this it goes on describing how Israel will be restored, using the metaphor "the servant" for Israel, a metaphor which can be found in many places in Isaiah.


 


When we fill in the Jewish people in Isaiah 53, everything falls into place. Isaiah 52:14; “As many were astonished at thee, his visage was so marred, more than any man, “ In Isaiah’s time the Jewish people had already been abused by many nations, see Isaiah 1:1-7; “…. Why should ye be stricken anymore? Ye will revolt more and more; the whole head is sick and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it, but wounds and bruises, and putrifying sores; they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.” Also here does the prophet Isaiah personify the people of Israel as a man who is stricken by God: From the sole of the foot up to the head covered with sores.


When we fill in the Jewish people in this text,: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." we also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.


Here we see that the Jewish people were punished for the sins of the Jewish people, just like in Isaiah 1:4-9. Also there are the Jewish people punished for the rebellious sins of the Jewish people. And that is what happens, when we sin we get punished, and through the punishment the sin is erased. This is a much more normal view upon sin and punishment than to think that when we sin God gets or was punished for it by being nailed to a cross. And those are the hard facts; everybody has to take his own responsibility, you cannot shove it of unto God or anybody else.


So Isaiah 53 speaks about the people of Israel, and not about Jesus.

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.

God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 5:06AM #3
Hoppy393
Posts: 2,695

Jan 24, 2011 -- 7:45PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Here's the text of the article:



Thanks for posting the full text, Mmarcoe.


I'm responding to just the first section of the text, not anyone in particular.


...


There is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that the servant of God, mentioned in Isaiah 53, is the messiah. In the authentic messianic prophecies there is always a sign that it talks about the messiah, the anointed king. ("messiah" means "anointed one") In the real messianic prophecies it speaks about a king, or about a ruler, or about a descendend of David, or about a descendend of Isai, the father of David. But here in Isaiah 53 is nothing like that. Also the word "messiah" is not used in Isaiah 53. There is not the slightest hint toward a messiah. It just speaks about the servant of God. And NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible, is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God". So Christianity is making up fairy tales here.



From a Christian perspective, the two are one in the same.  The servant of God, is, as you said below (I won't quote for space), the seed of Abraham.  But theologically, Jesus was/is the fistborn among Israel.  So you may indeed be correct that this passage does not refer to Jesus as messiah, but to the Christian, this passage is talking about Jesus, God's firstborn servant. 




Besides this, saying Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah runs into several problems. The prophet Isaiah is talking in the present/past tense; verse 3 and 4: “He is despised and rejected of men” “We hid as it were our faces from him, he was despised, and we esteemed him not” It goes on like this in the past tense up to verse ten. This is not the way the prophets announce future events, by saying that they already happened. The King James Version says in verse 2: "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant." Future tense. However; this is wrong. Here is absolutely positively spoken in the past tense. Compare the Revised Standard Version, it gives this verse correctly in the past tense. A quick course in exegesis for confused Christians: When a prophet speaks in the past tense, then he speaks about events that happened already. This is commonly called 'History'. Prophecy is about things that are going to happen in the future. History is the opposite of prophecy. Therefore, when a prophet speaks in the past tense, he is not prophesizing. These elementary facts were well known to the people whom translated the KJV, therefore they corrupted the translation and changed past tense to future tense, so that they could squeeze in Jesus.



The KJV translators could very well have been trying to squeeze in Jesus, but they could also have been going after the 'heart' of the passage. 


Firstly, there is the cheap answer (in my opinion) that Isaiah is prophesying history - "This will become our people's history."


Secondly... well, you'll have to bear with me on this one.  Christians repeatedly fight those who interpret the passion accounts in an anti-semitic way.  It is easy to twist the accounts to say that, "The Jews killed Jesus." While some Jews had a hand, the Christian answer is always that we killed Jesus - he bore our sins.  Now, this sounds like rubbish, because we live 2000 years in the future - there's no way we physically had a hand in killing Jesus.  But through my sin, I have had a hand in Jesus' death.  And through his [past] sin, Isaiah, and everyone in his time, had a hand in Jesus' death.


I am writing this at a late hour, and I am not the best at clarity.  Jesus is in the past tense because He is the servant of God.  The people are in the past tense not because the literal events are in the past, but because the sin is in the past.


...


Thirdly, I would like to ask what the pronouns mean - when Isaiah uses "We," to whom does he refer?  What is the antecedent for "He?"




When the prophet Isaiah switches to the future tense, he describes events that are not applicable to Jesus; verse 10: “When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,” He was not married, how is he going to see his seed?



It's not in the Hebrew Bible, but to the Christian, seed does not have to mean physical offspring.  Paul writes in Romans 9 that "Israel" is not natural children, but children of the promise.




Verse 12: “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” This essential part he did not fulfill. Only the simple part he did, as usually; being sick, suffering, dying; the part that can apply to millions of people, and the key part is going to happen in some unknown future.



That is, if you forget the resurrection, the day of Pentacost, etc.


I'm tired.  Good night for now.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 8:06AM #4
bigbear6161
Posts: 3,898
I think the early followers of Jesus reflecting on his death by crucifixion adapted the imagery of the suffering servant to explain it.  It becomes a point of departure from traditional Jewish understanding. It infuses a sense of meaning into the followers of Jesus who are already invigorated from their post-Easter experience and experience of the pouring out of the spirit. As you know I see these as valid subjective experiences that shaped the early followers. While a good argument can be made that the identification of Isaiah 53 with Jesus is not the original or traditional understanding or intention, no one can argue that the mechanism of reinterpretation of texts to find meaning in our lives is any less valid or important in human religious experience.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 9:57AM #5
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Eliyahu


Jan 24, 2011 -- 1:40PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:

About who does Isaiah 53 speak?


Some misguided souls think that Isaiah 53 speaks about JC. 


This of course is a horrible mistake.


Read here about who it does speak: [The plain truth about Isaiah 53, @ mountzion.freewebpage.org



First, with reference to Isaiah 52-53, care to explain how the following emphasized expressions would fit Israel, as a collective "messianic entity", rather than the Messiah as an individual person?


The Lord Will Vindicate His Servant


13 “Look, my servant will succeed!
He will be elevated, lifted high, and greatly exalted –
14 (just as many were horrified by the sight of you)
he was so disfigured he no longer looked like a man;
15 his form was so marred he no longer looked human
so now he will startle many nations.
Kings will be shocked by his exaltation,
for they will witness something unannounced to them,
and they will understand something they had not heard about.
1 Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the Lord’s power revealed through him?
2 He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
3 He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
4 But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
5 He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.
6 All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him.
7 He was treated harshly and afflicted,
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth.
8 He was led away after an unjust trial
but who even cared?
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living;
because of the rebellion of his own people he was wounded.
9 They intended to bury him with criminals,
but he ended up in a rich man’s tomb,
because he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made,
he will see descendants and enjoy long life,
and the Lord’s purpose will be accomplished through him.
11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
“My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins.
12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes,
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful,
because he willingly submitted to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened on behalf of the rebels.”
(Isaiah 52:13-53:12 - emphasis MdS - cp. Yeshayahu Ch. 52:13-15, 53:1-12 @ chabad.org)



Surely you realize that only by very strained and artificial exegesis and hermeneutics could you do that ...


Second, most Biblical scholars agree in considering that the  "Servant Songs", the passages relative to the "Suffering Servant", the  "Servant of the Lord", the עַבְדָּא יְהֹוָה, the`Abad' YHWH are this (and only this) series of four passages (Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-13; 50:4-11; 52:13-53:12). So, other passages, like  Isaiah 41:8,9 and 44:1,2,21,  while they certainly speak of Israel/Jacob as "servant" and can  certainly, and most naturally be referred to Israel in a collective  sense, are NOT part of the "Servant Songs", for which this collective interpretation of the Israel/servant if far more problematic (see above).


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 9:57AM #6
Kwinters
Posts: 21,944

Jan 24, 2011 -- 7:45PM, MMarcoe wrote:


Good article. It makes the case that Isaiah 53 refers to the people of Israel, not Jesus. I wish people would understand that it was the Jews who wrote Isaiah, and if it really were about Jesus, they would have made the connection unmistakable. And yet people insist on mincing words and squeezing meaning out of them.






Agreed.


This is clearly a case of people who knew of the life of Jesus looking for anything that mapped on to his life as justification for their claims.  In the case of Matthew he even makes things up in order to give Jesus more 'street cred' as it were.


If you want to know what things were predicted about the messiah, look at those passages that mention the son of David - in other words, the man who was the predicted messiah - and evaluate whether Jesus accomplished any of those things.


Again, if you are told you're going on a blind date with a hunky hottie you're not going to notice the weakling hanging out with his buddies at the back table.


The Jews can hardly be blamed if they were promised one thing and then given something that was entirely different.  After all, would their god so deceive them?  They'd say no.


 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 10:16AM #7
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

 


Jan 25, 2011 -- 9:57AM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Eliyahu


Jan 24, 2011 -- 1:40PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:

About who does Isaiah 53 speak?


Some misguided souls think that Isaiah 53 speaks about JC. 


This of course is a horrible mistake.


Read here about who it does speak: [The plain truth about Isaiah 53, @ mountzion.freewebpage.org



First, with reference to Isaiah 52-53, care to explain how the following emphasized expressions would fit Israel, as a collective "messianic entity", rather than the Messiah as an individual person?



 


Bs'd


 


Who is talking about a "messianic entity"??


It simply speaks about the people of Israel. 


You guys are so brainwashed you see a messiah everywhere.


 


Israel as the servant of God.

"Behold, my servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high."

>> As the prophets announce, Israel will be exalted, see Isaiah 60, 61, and 62. 

"As many were astonished at him -- his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men "

>> The servant Israel was no longer a nation when they were several times dispersed over the whole earth.  People were astonished about what happened to the Jews; persecutions, crusaders who wiped out complete Jewish communities before they took off to the holy land, including women and children.  There was the Christian inquisition, who had the horrible habit of torturing Jews to death, there was the holocaust in which Christian Europe murdered six million civilians, amongst them 1,500,000 children, there was plenty of reason to be upset about what befell the Jews.

"so shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand."

>> The world will be very surprised when the Jews, after almost 2000 years of exile, will come back to the holy land, and against all odds, will become very prominent amongst the nations.  

"Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground;

>> With 70 souls Jacob moved to Egypt, and there, in the arid ground, despite all the hardships imposed upon the Jews, Israel became a great people.

"he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him."

>> But it was a slave people, in a horrible way suppressed by the Egyptians, who committed genocide on the Jewish boys.

"He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

>> In Egypt, but also during the other exiles, Israel was acquainted with disasters: deportations, torture, killings.  Under those conditions nobody was very happy to be a Jew.  The people of Israel was despised, even by the Jews themselves who had to endure all these disasters.

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted."

>> Because Israel strayed away from Gods ways, it incurred the punishment connected to those sins, just like we see throughout the whole history of Israel.  They correctly assumed that Israel was smitten and afflicted by God.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

>> Israel was severely punished for the sins of Israel, and through the punishment acquired the cure, the total remission of sins.  

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

>> Israel strayed away from the law of God, and God brought the punishment for those sins upon Israel.

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."

Psalm 44:  "But for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
A good example of that is the holocaust, in which the Jews went like sheep to the slaughter.

"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living,"

>> When Israel was overrun by their enemies and led into exile, it was dead as a nation.  The land of Israel didn't exist anymore.

"stricken for the transgression of my people".

>> Israel stricken for the sins of Israel.

"And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."

>> Israel was conquered by and led in exile to the nations who were then economically and military on top of the world: "With a rich man in his death".
The reason for the punishment was idolatry, and not violence or deceit.

"Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;"

>> God punished Israel.

"when you make him an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;"

>> When Israel repents, and accepts the punishment from God, Israel will live again, and God's plan with Israel shall proceed.

"he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;"

>> Because Israel has been punished for it's sins, "it's travail", their sins are abolished, and God's plan for Israel will play itself out, and Israel shall see it "until satisfaction".

"by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities."

>> Israel shall through it's knowledge of God and his laws, knowledge not revealed to any other nation, turn many Israelites to a righteous path: "Fear God and observe his commandments".  But when Israel strays, it will receive the punishment from God.

"Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Israel will be lifted up, because it repented from it's sins, and was severely punished for it's sins.  It was (correctly) numbered with the transgressors, it bore the sins of many, and the righteous amongst them prayed for the sinners.


 


Second, most Biblical scholars agree



I assume you mean "most CHRISTIAN Biblical sholars".


in considering that the  "Servant Songs", the passages relative to the "Suffering Servant", the  "Servant of the Lord", the עַבְדָּא יְהֹוָה, the`Abad' YHWH are this (and only this) series of four passages (Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-13; 50:4-11; 52:13-53:12). So, other passages, like  Isaiah 41:8,9 and 44:1,2,21,  while they certainly speak of Israel/Jacob as "servant" and can  certainly, and most naturally be referred to Israel in a collective  sense, are NOT part of the "Servant Songs", for which this collective interpretation of the Israel/servant if far more problematic (see above).



Just one simple question, a question which can be answered correctly by a three year old child:


When Isaiah speaks about "the servant of God", does he then speak about God himself or about somebody else?


 


 


Eliyahu

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2011 - 4:57PM #8
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,168

Jan 24, 2011 -- 1:40PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


Bs'd


 


About who does Isaiah 53 speak?


 


Some misguided souls think that Isaiah 53 speaks about JC. 


 


This of course is a horrible mistake.


 


Read here about who it does speak:  mountzion.freewebpage.org/Isaiah53.html


 


 


Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!"   Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!"   Mica 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of God from Jerusalem."   Isaiah 2:3,  Mica 4:2





Sorry.  I read your article and couldn't disagree more.


How do you get past the references such as:


"He had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth"? (verse 9)


 


There are many verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that show the violence that Israel committed against innocent people, and the deception that Israel practiced.  Here are a few verses out of many:


"O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem....As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness:  violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds." (Jeremiah 6:1,7)


"Moreover, the word of the LORD came unto me saying, 'Also, thou son of man, thus saith the LORD GOD unto the land of Israel, An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land....Make a chain; for the land if full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence." (Ezekiel 7: 1,2 & 23)


 


"For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD....As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit..." (Jeremiah 5: 11 & 27)


"Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD....And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant." (Jeremiah 9: 6 & 11)


 


I think it can be discerned that Israel could NOT be the individual portrayed in Isaiah 53, because Isaiah 53 speaks of a man in whom no violence nor deceit was found, and Israel was guilty of plenty of it.


 

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2011 - 5:24PM #9
vra
Posts: 6,403

 


I think it can be discerned that Israel could NOT be the individual portrayed in Isaiah 53, because Isaiah 53 speaks of a man in whom no violence nor deceit was found, and Israel was guilty of plenty of it.


 



Didn't Jesus fashion a whip and use it just outside the Temple?


In Jerome's Bible Commentary (Catholic), which is an excellent one I might add, it says that Isaiah certainly is not directly dealing with Jesus but that it "prefigures Jesus".  IOW, one can apply it to Jesus in a symbolic sense, but not literal. 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2011 - 5:33PM #10
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,168

Jan 26, 2011 -- 5:24PM, vra wrote:


 


I think it can be discerned that Israel could NOT be the individual portrayed in Isaiah 53, because Isaiah 53 speaks of a man in whom no violence nor deceit was found, and Israel was guilty of plenty of it.


 



Didn't Jesus fashion a whip and use it just outside the Temple?


In Jerome's Bible Commentary (Catholic), which is an excellent one I might add, it says that Isaiah certainly is not directly dealing with Jesus but that it "prefigures Jesus".  IOW, one can apply it to Jesus in a symbolic sense, but not literal. 


 




Well, for goodness sake, Catholics say that Mary was born of a virgin also and that she ascended to heaven like Jesus.....and that the pope is infallible, which he apparently was not until the late 19th century.


And I wouldn't call Jesus getting rid of the temple money-grubbers "violence."  It doesn't say what he did with the whip.  Just how did he use it?  Whirling it around his head?  Striking the ground?  It doesn't state what he did with it.



I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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