Post Reply
Page 21 of 27  •  Prev 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 27 Next
Switch to Forum Live View About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 11:26AM #201
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 21, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


Jan 31, 2011 -- 12:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 31, 2011 -- 11:40AM, davelaw40 wrote:

I wasn't aware it went back that far- I don't see that interpretation in either of the Talmuds-but it is in some of the notes in the masoretic texts.


I was referring to this:


“Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.” -- Origen, Contra Celsus (@ newadvent.org) [sic], Book I, Ch. 55 (N.B. the prophecy, Isaiah 53, is at Ch. 54)


In fact the Jewish interpretations of the "Suffering Servant" as a metaphor for Israel may be attested as far back as Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (@ ccel.org), ca. 150 AD, but I would have to check.


Mario




Bs'd


Actually, it goes back to Targum Jonathan ben Uziel, who lived in the first century.


Of course it goes back 2700 years, to the days of Isaiah, because it is very obvious that it speaks about Israel.




Eliyahu




SO OBVIOUS THAT VARIOUS ORTHODOX SECTS HAVE CLAIMED THEIR LEADER AS THE SUFFERING SERVANT

Non Quis, Sed Quid
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 11:32AM #202
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

May 21, 2012 -- 8:31AM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


Bs'd


Twenty pages with bla bla bla and nothing that makes any sense.



Let's get back to basics:   Christians claim the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah.



So my question is:  What proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, can the Christians come up with. to proof their point that the servant is the messiah?



Thanks in advance.




Eliyahu





TEXTUALLY?


like "we" as used in 53 always refers to the nation of Israel 


that  sheresh is a messianic reference to the root of Jesse i.e. the NTZR


if all have sinned, they can not also be the righteous servant

Non Quis, Sed Quid
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:03PM #203
Eliascomes
Posts: 1,065

Verses is speaking about the Messiah to come and how He will be treated. That's how we will know whom is the true King. Because the kingdoms of this world attacked invaders from other kingdoms to prevent a take over. They knew Jesus wasn't one of them. And so they had spied on Him to figure out if He was with them or not.


Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:21PM #204
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

May 21, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Verses is speaking about the Messiah to come and how He will be treated. That's how we will know whom is the true King. Because the kingdoms of this world attacked invaders from other kingdoms to prevent a take over. They knew Jesus wasn't one of them. And so they had spied on Him to figure out if He was with them or not.


Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.





Bs'd



?????????????????



I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.



We have already more than 20 pages with nonsense, let's talk business now.



Please give me that proof.



Eliyahu

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:31PM #205
jlb32168
Posts: 13,622

May 21, 2012 -- 12:21PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:

I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


How is one supposed to prove this either way, Elyahu?  Either conclusion is faith based and faith claims cannot be proved – hence why their called faith claims.

Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:35PM #206
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

May 21, 2012 -- 11:32AM, davelaw40 wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 8:31AM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


Bs'd


Twenty pages with bla bla bla and nothing that makes any sense.



Let's get back to basics:   Christians claim the servant in Isaiah 53 is the messiah.



So my question is:  What proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, can the Christians come up with. to proof their point that the servant is the messiah?



Thanks in advance.




Eliyahu





TEXTUALLY?


like "we" as used in 53 always refers to the nation of Israel




Bs'd


So???


I'm asking for proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.  Proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach.



Please give that.



that  sheresh is a messianic reference to the root of Jesse i.e. the NTZR




There is no "netzer" to be found in Isaiah 53. 


But you believe that "shoresh" points to your messiah.


Well, interesting messiah you have in Deut 29:  " lest there be in you a root fruitful of gall and wormwood:"


Another shoresh:  " For from the root of a serpent cometh out a viper,"  Isaiah 14



Ok, enough nonsense.  Please give me some proof from Isaiah or from the rest of the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.



Eliyahu

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:40PM #207
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

May 21, 2012 -- 12:31PM, jlb32168 wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 12:21PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:

I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


How is one supposed to prove this either way, Elyahu?  Either conclusion is faith based and faith claims cannot be proved – hence why their called faith claims.



Bs'd


Are you now saying that you cannot prove from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah??


Your whole story about Isaiah 53 is based on nothing??


Talk in the air???



And yes, I can prove my point, and bs'd I will prove it, but first I want the Christians to bring proof from Isaiah, or, if that proves to be too difficult, from the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


If they cannot do that, then there is really nothing to talk about.



So I'm waiting.



Eliyahu




Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 12:50PM #208
Eliascomes
Posts: 1,065

May 21, 2012 -- 12:21PM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 12:03PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Verses is speaking about the Messiah to come and how He will be treated. That's how we will know whom is the true King. Because the kingdoms of this world attacked invaders from other kingdoms to prevent a take over. They knew Jesus wasn't one of them. And so they had spied on Him to figure out if He was with them or not.


Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.





Bs'd



?????????????????



I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.



We have already more than 20 pages with nonsense, let's talk business now.



Please give me that proof.



Eliyahu




 I guess that you are a Jew. What happen if you spared the rod on someone that committed a crime? He's going to get back out there and do the same thing over again. what if he a Jew? Is he still is going to make it to the Kingdom? So there's two types of Jews. Good and bad. So there's two types of Kingdoms also, which is ruled by two kings. If one King crosses over to the other side, what would happen to that King? We already know the kingdom which we dwell in, isn't perfect. So which kingdom should we call it? and if someone think that this kingdom is a good place, what should we call him? Jew is describing a person origin, it isn't a different type of species. If they know how to lie, cheat, and steal, they belong with everyone else that dwells here.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 2:12PM #209
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

May 21, 2012 -- 12:50PM, Eliascomes wrote:

I guess that you are a Jew. What happen if you spared the rod on someone that committed a crime? He's going to get back out there and do the same thing over again. what if he a Jew? Is he still is going to make it to the Kingdom? So there's two types of Jews. Good and bad. So there's two types of Kingdoms also, which is ruled by two kings. If one King crosses over to the other side, what would happen to that King? We already know the kingdom which we dwell in, isn't perfect. So which kingdom should we call it? and if someone think that this kingdom is a good place, what should we call him? Jew is describing a person origin, it isn't a different type of species. If they know how to lie, cheat, and steal, they belong with everyone else that dwells here.



Bs'd



Like I said:  


I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


We have already more than 20 pages with nonsense, enough of it.  Let's talk business now.



Please give me that proof.





Eliyahu

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 2:15PM #210
Eliyahu7
Posts: 83

May 21, 2012 -- 11:26AM, davelaw40 wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 7:30AM, Eliyahu7 wrote:


Jan 31, 2011 -- 12:13PM, Miguel_de_servet wrote:


Dave


Jan 31, 2011 -- 11:40AM, davelaw40 wrote:

I wasn't aware it went back that far- I don't see that interpretation in either of the Talmuds-but it is in some of the notes in the masoretic texts.


I was referring to this:


“Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.” -- Origen, Contra Celsus (@ newadvent.org) [sic], Book I, Ch. 55 (N.B. the prophecy, Isaiah 53, is at Ch. 54)


In fact the Jewish interpretations of the "Suffering Servant" as a metaphor for Israel may be attested as far back as Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (@ ccel.org), ca. 150 AD, but I would have to check.


Mario




Bs'd


Actually, it goes back to Targum Jonathan ben Uziel, who lived in the first century.


Of course it goes back 2700 years, to the days of Isaiah, because it is very obvious that it speaks about Israel.




Eliyahu




SO OBVIOUS THAT VARIOUS ORTHODOX SECTS HAVE CLAIMED THEIR LEADER AS THE SUFFERING SERVANT




Bs'd



Every idiot can claim whatever he wants.



The trick is to support it with evidence.



I'm asking for some proof from Isaiah or the rest of the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.


We have already more than 20 pages with nonsense, let's talk business now.



Please give me that proof.





Eliyahu




Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 21 of 27  •  Prev 1 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 27 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook