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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 8:01AM #11
Sen_McGlinn
Posts: 102

Jan 18, 2011 -- 2:39PM, world citizen wrote:


Second, it's also my understanding that most of the world's theists, irrespective of the religion followed, await a Day when God's Kingdom on earth will become realized.  Whether it be a few centuries or a few thousand years from now that it were to become a reality, what exactly would that be called - how would that be described - if not a theocracy of some sort?  I'd imagine that the reality of such a Day would see all of humanity living under the same  Laws of God, designed solely to promote the promised peace on earth.





This illustrates exactly why the discussion in the Bahai community has been so fruitless over the generations. The Bahai writings are clear and unambiguous, and sufficient of them have been translated by Shoghi Effendi, for us to be quite clear that the Bahai teachings are not theocratic, but they are approached with muddled vocabulary and assumptions brought into the Faith from various other religious backgrounds and various national histories. "God's Kingdom on earth" would not necessarily be a theocracy, if we are using the term to refer to a system of government in which "a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.  ... A theocracy may be monist in form, where the administrative hierarchy of the government is identical with the administrative hierarchy of the  religion, or it may have two 'arms,' but with the state administrative  hierarchy subordinate to the religious hierarchy." (Wikipedia, 'Theocracy') So if one thinks that God's teaching is "Render unto Caesar", God's kingdom on earth would not be theocratic. If one believes in the divine right of kings, including their right to control the church, the Kingdom on earth would be caesaropapist (ie Ceasar is the Pope), not theocratic. And so on - a truly religious society is not necessarily a theocratic one, it depends on the religion, and on the politics, of the society. 


John Hatcher can serve as a case in point. In The Law of Love Enshrined (176) he refers in passing to “a spiritually based society, essentially theocratic in form,” as if the two are necessarily synonymous. It's not that he has some theocratic political ideology he is pushing, rather he knows so little about politics and its terms, and has thought so little about them, that he speaks nonsense.


 


On your second point, the Bahai faith does not envision everyone living under the same religious laws, it envisions religious belief as a free choice made by the individual. Therefore, everyone, at every moment, is free not to be a Bahai, and not to be bound by the Bahai laws. 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 8:26AM #12
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,930

For those who are interested in the truth of Bahá'í beliefs on this matter the following letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated 1995 Apr 27, is available. It is titled "Separation of Church and State".


The basic idea is that someday when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís. That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense.


 What's the big deal? Who else would govern? Would they have to import people who are not Bahá'ís to rule, so that some folks who are alarmed by this today, won't be scared?


When that does happen, it will probably happen one country at a time. People will see it and be able to examine what's going on. There is no hiding anymore and there will be less secrecy in the future. Even governments are losing privacy what with wikileaks, and that's going on today. By then there will be no concealment for any national government, no matter how powerful.


The people of the world are also getting more fractious. Look at tiny Tunisia these days. Street protests there are actually real-time world news!


Give it what? another hundred years? before the first nation becomes completely Bahá'í and you think it could even possibly be anything but the positive benefit it has always been?


The whole world already knows what goes on nearly everywhere. In a few decades when our watches or glasses can do everything todays best laptops, cameras, cell phones, can do combined, and run on miniscule solar cells or your own body's electrical fields there won't even be a Big Brother. Big Brother himself will be as exposed as the proverbial naked emperor.


Look at Egypt. Embarassed by what fanatics have done by killing Coptic Christians, some Muslims including family members of ruling powers have recently joined demonstrations trying to make their country not look like the backward oppressive society that it has become. This while their highest judicial authorities oppress the small Bahá'í community and give lame religious excuses instead of fair rulings.


They know the value of a good repute and are trying not to become the type of international pariah that some other nations are. When the entire world can see everything; it will take more than just not believing in God, to think your actions are not exposed to external judgment.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 8:48AM #13
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,930

Thanks, Sen.


Always look forward to your posts!


May not always agree with every conclusion, but have always enjoyed your writing.


The clarity, concision and fairmindedness is much appreciated!


Oh, yes! Their letter was in response to one of Sen's letters to the Universal House of Justice.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 9:26AM #14
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,930

Sen, agree about the terminology issue of the word theocracy.


 


 


What do you think of the following:


"He is the King,..." (Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 208)


Of course you know it from the start of "The Tablet of Ahmad". In that sense, "Theocracy" has always inescapably existed and will continue forevermore. Talk about Big Government, eh!


Wink


And then there's.


"Wert thou to speed through the immensity of space and traverse the expanse of heaven, yet thou wouldst find no rest save in submission to Our command and humbleness before Our Face."


 (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)


So, much for outer space then, too, huh?


Be afraid, be very afraid ... but then that would make us all into God-fearing folk, wouldn't it!


Innocent


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 9:27AM #15
MrBear
Posts: 426

Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:26AM, in_my_opinion wrote:


The basic idea is that someday when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís. That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense.



Define "everybody" imo.


100% of the adult population?


98%?...95%?...80%?.....?


There will come a time, in about 100 years according to you, in which "everybody" has become a Baha'i and government then tranfers to the Baha'is? "That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense"?


And in this mythical land there are >NO< dissenting minorities? No Atheists, no Jews, no Homosexuals, no Christians, no agnostics, no Moslems, no Democrats, no free range free thinkers, no ex Baha'is, no CB's.........there is, in this wonderful 'Unity in diversity', just Baha'is and only Baha'is- "everybody has become a Bahá'í"?


What a bloody nightmare. What an arrogant, atrocious and horrid vision of the future for any country.


Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:26AM, in_my_opinion wrote:


 What's the big deal?




It's insane. It's despotic. It's fundamentalist Theocratic meglomania. It's never going to happen.


But appart from that...


Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:26AM, in_my_opinion wrote:

Who else would govern?




According to you every single minority group has vanished....so I guess the Borg Baha'i will govern because all else has been assimilated.


Clearly- "Resistance is futile"


www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8


 


Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:26AM, in_my_opinion wrote:

Would they have to import people who are not Bahá'ís to rule, so that some folks who are alarmed by this today, won't be scared?



Well all the ex Baha'is and unenrolled Baha'is (along with everone else) have conveniently vanished in your Utopian Baha'i Theocracy future.......something >magic< has happened by then to make all the former Baha'is cease to exist?....something >glorious< has happened to make "every" Gay person line up to join Baha'i?


You have a 'solution' for the problem of the existence of these people?


What sane person would not be "alarmed", "scared" and disgusted by the horrid homogenous future vision you project.


I oppose the nightmare you describe with every fibre of my being.



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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 9:36AM #16
MrBear
Posts: 426

Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:01AM, Sen_McGlinn wrote:


 Therefore, everyone, at every moment, is free not to be a Bahai, and not to be bound by the Bahai laws. 


 



And you can reconcile that "everyone, at every moment" with this future fantasy-


"The basic idea is that someday when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís. That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense." imo


A future "moment" in which there are no non Baha'is? "when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country"? 




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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 1:38PM #17
Sen_McGlinn
Posts: 102

Jan 19, 2011 -- 12:00PM, Aka_me wrote:


Jan 18, 2011 -- 3:04PM, Aka_me wrote:

a theocracy hasn't happened yet, just as the sky hasn't fallen yet, nuclear war hasn't happened yet, and ufo invasion hasn't started yet.


and they're all worth spending hurrendous amounts of energy worrying about.



as I've said...


hasn't happened yet


but we need to spend all our energy worrying about EVERY one them...


not




The sky hasn't fallen - but there's some serious stuff going down. What if one person who would have become a lover of Baha'u'llah and had their lives enriched, has instead been turned off and turned away, because the Bahais were not on-message with Abdu'l-Baha: 


"...religion is separated from politics. Religion does not enter into  political matters. In fact, it is linked with the hearts, not with the  world of bodies. The leaders of religion should devote themselves to  teaching and training the souls and propagating good morals, and they  should not enter into political matters.


wp.me/pcgF5-1wd#09


 


What if an assembly somewhere thought it was a government-in-waiting and acted that way towards the community?


 


What if Bahais and Bahai authors provided ammunition to the Bahai Faith's enemies?


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 8:37PM #18
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,930

"It's never going to happen."


If, you're so sure of that; then, why are you so concerned?


Why this whole topic at all? It seems extremely disingenuous.


Ignoring that our laws apply only to ourselves not to you or anyone else makes no sense.


All anyone has to do is step out of membership like you did. You didn't do it out of wanting to have a gay lifestyle and it seems to have been some strange act of protest.


You didn't even need to end membership; the worst sanction that might possibly happen, might be losing voting rights which you weren't using anyway; since, you admitted you were inactive.


The institutions have better things to do than bothering with your personal habits as a Bahá'í, unless they become a public embarassment and even then you just aren't "in good standing".


If, you're not a Bahá'í; then, it doesn't matter to the Faith at all. We still love you and neither we, nor the institutions of the Faith, will condemn you or take any other action. You're free to do whatever you want.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 11:02PM #19
MrBear
Posts: 426

Jan 19, 2011 -- 8:37PM, in_my_opinion wrote:


"It's never going to happen."


If, you're so sure of that; then, why are you so concerned?




Because of the arrogance, hatred and contempt you consistently display towards those you designate as enemies.


 Most civilised people who disagree with or oppose others can still engage in mutually respectful discussion.


Why am I concerned?... Because the arrogant self assured God in my pocket dismissiveness you display towards others is commonplace among Baha’is  and clearly indicates you ought not be in charge of a Chook Raffle let alone a country.


 I am concerned because I have spent two decades in the Baha’i community being subjected to such callous disinterest in the interests, pertinent questions, rights and well being of others.


 I am concerned because I have clearly and frequently articulated my(and others) dismay at the abuse that transpires within the Baha’i community and the tolerance, detachment and aloofness displayed towards such abuse...and you/other Baha’is cannot even acknowledge or discuss the issues.


 I am concerned that you have taken the very loving spirit and core of the Faith enunciated by the Blessed Beauty and turned it into a display of blatant contempt for others in the name of wilful ignorance- ‘evil’.


 I am concerned that having had my issues, concerns and pertinent questions ignored by you a hundred times, only to have you turn around and have the gall to ask me questions....>other Baha’is< will continue to tolerate and ignore such behaviour....just as they do in the Baha’i community.


 And I will continue to answer your points questions concerns, and you will continue to ignore mine, and Baha’is will continue to turn a blind tolerant aloof eye......and pretend they have something loving/spiritual going on.


 


[ad hominem removed - wc]



Moderated by world citizen on Jan 20, 2011 - 03:54PM
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2011 - 11:40PM #20
MrBear
Posts: 426

Jan 19, 2011 -- 11:19PM, Aka_me wrote:

yes


all excellent reasons to tear down Baha'u'llah's desired intention of unity.



As has been previously put to you and repeatedly/steadfastly ignored by you-


"Unity" is not the sole consideration or central core of Baha'u'llahs faith...it is not possible, prudent, wise, spiritual, faithful or just to sacrifice >Justice< The Best Boloved of All Things in His Sight on the altar of 'Unity'.


>You< and >You< alone have sought to falsely  portray >each and every issue raised< as an "attack on Baha'u'llah" and seeking to "tear down Baha'u'llah's desired intention of unity"


 Those forged and falsified positions and intents >created by you< and projected on me despite repeated disclaimer and rejection are the reason you have been deemed unworthy of any further attempt to communicate with.


Now, out of pure spite, you continue to attempt to foist such fabrication upon me at every given oportunity.


Go for it Aka-me....let non Baha'i folk see >exactly< what they can expect and experience inside the Baha'i community.


It's a real winning strategy.  

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