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Switch to Forum Live View Baha'is displaying prejudice
4 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 10:27PM #1
Aka_me
Posts: 12,059

it's time to acknowledge that I've been wasting my time here...


I will be wasting no more time on such a hostile, hateful, suffering, lost cause.

there can be no meaning or value to life, in a universe devoid of meaning and value... because the moment those who knew you are gone, you will never have existed at all.

if you see anyone not screaming at the top of their lungs THE SKY IS FALLING BECAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING! then for prophet Gore's sake help them see the light that doing so is the only means we have of getting off fossil fuel.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 6:30AM #2
MrBear
Posts: 426

Jan 6, 2011 -- 10:27PM, Aka_me wrote:


despite the inability to follow a simple request to create a new thread for a new topic, I will create it so as to allow the existing thread it carry on.




Dealing with “despite”


1/ Despite the fact that declining a “request” does not denote “inability” to do so.


2/ Despite the fact that the unwarranted/unjustified “request”> was not< to “to create a new thread for a new topic”.


3/Despite the fact that there is no such word as “prejudism”. (It’s a “simple” language...shall we discuss “inability”? ;-)


4/ Despite the fact that all prior attempts to communicate end with blatant falsification and misrepresentation.


5/ Despite the fact that this thread begins with same- evoking emotive terms “animosity, any anger, any "hard feelings" ...” for which there is no prior evidence/justification and placing quotation marks around an expression >as if< it was something I had said/expressed.


Despite all of the falsification and filibuster identified above the prejudice of your  argument is exposed in the following-


Jan 6, 2011 -- 10:27PM, Aka_me wrote:



“as to whether an openly gay person has their voting rights removed...how would that be any different than an openly alcoholic person having their voting rights removed?”



 .



 


You seriously wish to liken the crippling and debilitating scourge of the illness “alcoholism” to homosexuality?


You seriously wish to do so in the attempt to demonstrate absence of 'prejudice'?


 Alcoholism- Which destroys families with domestic violence, Alcoholism- Which destroys the lives of tens of thousands of binge drinking youth, Alcoholism- Which kills and cripples thousands in road injuries every year,  Alcoholism- Which costs communities across the world billions in hospital care, rehab and policing....


 How is being an “openly alcoholic person” > "different"< to being “an openly gay person”!!!!!!!!!!!????


 


Gee Aka-me....Perhaps you could drop into your local Homosexual Rehab Centre and ask that question.


Or maybe try asking it in a Gay Bar.


 Any “alcoholic person” within the Baha’i/any community deserves effective and compassionate treatment for their > ILLNESS<.


 Any Gay person within or considering entering the Baha’i community deserves to know what kind of absurd and unjustified PREJUDICE they will be up against.The kind that equates homosexuality with the debilitating illness of alcoholism and would condemn both to loss of voting rights.


 

Jan 6, 2011 -- 10:27PM, Aka_me wrote:


let us discuss specific examples of Baha'is "treating someone different" based on a prejudism.



Your "specific example" will suffice.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 1:07PM #3
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

The Baha'i Faith and Baha'u'llah's revelation are progressive, in the actual sense of the word.


They are not, and never will be politically correct.


Religion never has been, and the job of the Manifestations has never been to tell people what they wanted to hear -- or to make them feel good about themselves as they were. Rather, it has always been to challenge the individual into a rigorus and brutally honest self-evaluation -- and society as a whole to move forward on solid prinicples, not feel-good platitude.


Thusly I think that many of the objections toward the Baha'i Faith -- and religion in general -- for not conforming to the so-called standards of any particular age (such as the politically correct standards embraced by many right now) falls under the category of the error that humans make by judging the Word of God against their own standards and aquired knowledge -- rather than cleansing their minds and hearts of said aquired knowledge and emotional attatchments before objectively seeking the truth.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 1:31PM #4
world citizen
Posts: 5,446

The Faith acknowledges that most homosexuals are born that way, no differently than heterosexuals are born with opposite-sex attractions.  The Faith does NOT distance itself from them or from those who drink alcohol, nor does it castigate them.  The Baha'i Faith does, however, expect that those who have accepted Baha'u'llah as the Voice of God for this day will try as best they can to obey His laws.  It's an adult faith for spiritually mature believers.

The loss of voting rights only applies to those who flagrently flaunt the Aqdas while, at the same time, proclaim themselves to others as being Baha'is.  Ex: drinking heavily in a bar where the patrons know that individual to be a Baha'i;  participating in a Gay Pride parade with others who know that individual to be a Baha'i.  Drinking in the privacy of one's home or practicing sodomy in the privacy of one's home is between the individual and God.  It's only when overt actions bring disgrace to the Faith that administrative discipline (ie., removal of voting rights) is considered.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 1:34PM #5
Aka_me
Posts: 12,059

Jan 7, 2011 -- 6:30AM, MrBear wrote:

You seriously wish to liken the crippling and debilitating scourge of the illness “alcoholism” to homosexuality?


You seriously wish to do so in the attempt to demonstrate absence of 'prejudice'?


 Alcoholism- Which destroys families with domestic violence, Alcoholism- Which destroys the lives of tens of thousands of binge drinking youth, Alcoholism- Which kills and cripples thousands in road injuries every year,  Alcoholism- Which costs communities across the world billions in hospital care, rehab and policing....


 How is being an “openly alcoholic person” > "different"< to being “an openly gay person”!!!!!!!!!!!????


 


Gee Aka-me....Perhaps you could drop into your local Homosexual Rehab Centre and ask that question.


Or maybe try asking it in a Gay Bar.


 Any “alcoholic person” within the Baha’i/any community deserves effective and compassionate treatment for their > ILLNESS<.


 Any Gay person within or considering entering the Baha’i community deserves to know what kind of absurd and unjustified PREJUDICE they will be up against.The kind that equates homosexuality with the debilitating illness of alcoholism and would condemn both to loss of voting rights.



what we have here...


is confusion between "consequences" and "cause".


drinking has clear and undebatable negative consequences.


active gay lifestyle would not appear to have any negative consequences to anyone who is not a follower of Baha'u'llah.


it is Baha'u'llah who said an active gay lifestyle has negative spiritual consequences, so this particular argument needs to be directed to it's proper source...


Baha'u'llah


neither the cause of alcoholism, nor same sex attraction, are understood.


neither alcoholism, nor same sex attraction, are curable.


being an addict myself I can tell you from first hand experience the condition is not curable, it is only managable by a constant conscious choice to remain clean.


am I upset at Baha'u'llah for making me an addict?


no! and neither should anyone be upset at Baha'u'llah for being a diabetic.


that simply is the situation of physical world to see every physical defect possible happen at some point in time.


I am specifically NOT arguing that 100% of all Baha'is have ZERO prejudice


if they did we'd see them performing miracles and writing canon.


what I AM arguing is that the Baha'i writings are a model, a guide, a resource...


to helping not only Baha'is, but the entire world, heal the disease of prejudice.


 


this entire case... is a case against Baha'u'llah


but we will continue to pretend like it's case against fallible human beings for being fallible.

there can be no meaning or value to life, in a universe devoid of meaning and value... because the moment those who knew you are gone, you will never have existed at all.

if you see anyone not screaming at the top of their lungs THE SKY IS FALLING BECAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING! then for prophet Gore's sake help them see the light that doing so is the only means we have of getting off fossil fuel.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 1:52PM #6
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

World Citizen,


The gay issue has already caused some people to look at the Baha'i Faith with a jaundiced eye, and it will doubtlessly countinue to be a sticking point.


On one had, it's a good thing that society is moving away from the viewpoint that homosexuals are some sort of freaks or monsters, that they are sub-human, or that they are deliberately and willfully moral degenerates simply for having the feelings they do. The United States recently lifted the ban on openly gay people serving in the military, and seems to be moving toward making gay marriage legal. I see those as good things.


While, as a Baha'i, I might not be able in good concience to support gay marriage, I certainly see no reason to oppose it. Nor do I see it as my business to poke my nose into secular law and tell other consenting adults what they can and cannot do, or who they should marry.


On the other hand, I think there is a massive and systematic denial going on about the nature and implications of homosexulity itself. The viewpoint that it's simply a "harmless" and morally-neutral variation in human sexuality is, I think, propped up by such massive denial and elaborate rationalizations that it basically consitutes a house of cards that is doomed and destined to fall in the face of honest scrutiny and objective fact. You'll often hear that homosexuality is just like variations in eye color or being left-handed. I find such arguments to be so couched in denial and rationalization, they are utterly exasperating. But, I've also -- finally, after literal years of trying to counter them here on B'net and other places -- realized the futility of trying to convince some people to see otherwise.


Of course, the big gun that gets dragged out often is when it's pointed out that the Baha'i Faith itself is supposed to reconcile science with religion. That the Blessed Beauty, the Master and the Guardian all stated, in no uncertain terms, that any aspect of religion that does not square with science can -- indeed must -- be dismissed as supersition. So, therefore, why can't the Baha'i faith "get with" science on the issue of homosexuality.


Well, my problem with that argument is that yes, while the Faith does say we must always square belief with science, it does not say that scientists are infallible, and the science of any given day or age is, in fact, the objective truth and will always stand. I think much of the science applied to -- or at least cited in arguments regarding the issue of homosexuality really amounts to what I would call "bubblegum science." In other words, it mostly boils down to the citiation of studies done in the soft, or social sciences -- which might not be all that reliable to being with.


 The really objectie, hard sciences actually haven't had that much to say, other than "we're not really sure what causes some people to be homosexual, while most others are hetrosexual."


And, of course, it is now such a politically and emotionally charged issue, honsestly objective study of it is hard to come by.


At any rate, to wrap this meandering tirade of mine up, I think it is one of those issues in which the truth will  be revealed slowly, over time. I think that both of the polarized extremes --those who say homosexuals are moral degenerates and gay rights can't be tolerated, and those who say homosexuality is just a harmless variation like eye color, therefore, religion should embrace it and approve of gay marriage -- are off-base. And time will eventually reveal the flaws in both those points of view.


Past that, it's pretty pointless to try arguing the issue and to try changing the minds of those set in their views. Any criticism the Baha'i Faith might take regarding this issue is simply a storm we will have to weather.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 2:51PM #7
world citizen
Posts: 5,446

mytmouse ~


I think the main thing seldom addressed about this subject is that nowhere, even in the Aqdas, does Baha'u'llah ever condemn anyone for being a homosexual.  What is actually condemned is the act of sodomy and all sexual relations outside of the marriage bed.  Both of these apply also to heterosexual members of the Baha'i Faith.  It isn't about being homosexual per se; it's about what you do with that sexuality regardless of which side of the fence you might find yourself.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 3:29PM #8
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jan 7, 2011 -- 2:51PM, world citizen wrote:


mytmouse ~


I think the main thing seldom addressed about this subject is that nowhere, even in the Aqdas, does Baha'u'llah ever condemn anyone for being a homosexual.  What is actually condemned is the act of sodomy and all sexual relations outside of the marriage bed.  Both of these apply also to heterosexual members of the Baha'i Faith.  It isn't about being homosexual per se; it's about what you do with that sexuality regardless of which side of the fence you might find yourself.





That's true, and a very important point that's often overlooked by both sides of the debate. Nobody can be looked down upon -- nor or they condemned by God -- for simply "being" anything or any way. It is actions, as you accurately point out, that are either praiseworthy or blameworthy. However, even actions don't lead, I think, to hatred by God. So, it is most certainly not appropriate for people to hate or condemn one another for actions.


However, the sticking point might be, the fact that Baha'u'llah sanctions only sex within marriage, and only marriage between a man and woman, doesn't hold for a favorable -- or approving -- veiw of homosexuality.


It was also, as I recall, in a letter written on the behalf of the Guardian, described as an "affliction." Despite flying in the face of current political correctness, I think that might be an accurate description, and science will eventually confirm it.


Again, I think the veiw that it's "harmless" or merely another kind of normal -- morally and functionally equivalent to hetrosexuality -- is couched in rationalization and denial. It's also based upon a worldview seated in moral relevatism -- which I don't think is one Baha'u'llah would endorse or recommend for the progress of Humanity.


I think society is at a crossroads. We are on one hand shedding the notions that gay people are freaks and monsters, worthy only of contempt. But, I think, there's still a collective denial to face the truth about homosexuality itself.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 4:29PM #9
world citizen
Posts: 5,446

There is often the argument made that homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time, so there must be nothing abnormal about it.  Infants since time began have also been born with cleft palates, clubfeet, heart defects and other problems.  Should that mean there is nothing abnormal about those either?

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 07, 2011 - 4:47PM #10
Aka_me
Posts: 12,059

in the olden days... physical violence was acceptable against gay people.


it's nice that we have progressed enough to realize how wrong that was.


today, we have some religions who believe it is incumbent upon themselves to legislate their sense of morality upon unbelievers.


neither Jesus, Baha'u'llah, nor any of the Manifestations, ever gave orders to legislate morality upon the unbelievers. which goes to show the "religion" of obeying fallible human beings will cause a person to become confused about whether God is/has/was talking... or human prejudiced agendas are talking.


it gets overlooked that Baha'i are making no attempt to legislate their sense of morality upon those who are not members of the faith


let alone, NOT going into the privacy of one's home to "sniff out whether any sin might be happening".

there can be no meaning or value to life, in a universe devoid of meaning and value... because the moment those who knew you are gone, you will never have existed at all.

if you see anyone not screaming at the top of their lungs THE SKY IS FALLING BECAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING! then for prophet Gore's sake help them see the light that doing so is the only means we have of getting off fossil fuel.
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