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Switch to Forum Live View Four Questions........
8 years ago  ::  Dec 03, 2010 - 7:10PM #1
Posts: 18,418

1)  Each culture should retain the right to define itself:  this is WHY Afghan women can't be liberated by anyone OUTside the Afghani people.  And this is WHY Jews will never allow any non-Jewish group to decide for us who is, or is not, 'one of us'.


Part of the Jewish definition of Judaism has been 'awaiting the MbD', and to that end, we have a collective list of the works the MbD will do.  A human-and-only-human MbD.  And not one word I know of speaks to 'redeeming us from our sins' or any such nonJewish concept.


>>>>My personal opinion is that the Talmud is right:  that's the source of the 'four sons' section of the Hagaddah.  And when someone claims to be a Jew and turns to us and says "Why do you believe thus-and-such" - which 'son' is that and why?


   The Jew too uneducated in Judaism to see the basis for Jewish belief is found in Torah, would properly ask "What is all this?"  That of course is no 'sin', for they have no 'knowledge base'.  Knowing that we *should* live by Torah isn't the same as learning *how* to do so (which of course, is where Talmud and 'Guide to the Perplexed' and the 'Shulchan aruch' come in...not as rulebooks, but as guides...)


2) There is a very real concern about the 'origins' of MJ :  it is very clear that no such 'community' survived the Roman Shoah.  What IS the undisputed single earliest source for 'MJ' is Evangelical Christian 'Missions to the Hebrews'.  We are STILL seeing that in many,many sites and groups which claim the MJ label - their 'leadership' is largely EC by birth, upbringing AND training.  They see their 'congregations' as 'missions' *exactly the same as they have made in Africa and Asia*


The numbers of even 'JINO'-born  "MJ" congregants are tiny, perhaps as little as 20% - how does that make the 'MJ' a "Jewish" movement by any normal standards?  At least if I say that the 'Pentecostal' Christians are a Black movement, there is some basis to that:  no matter the percentage of African-Americans there now, the beginning of the movement was organized by African-Americans .


And, as I will show everyone:  there is a big debate within 'MJ' over exactly the too-large EC presence, AND with regard to EC doctrine which many MJ reject.


3) As noted, MJ is hardly monolithic...which IS an aspect it shares with Judaism : ))   There are several subsets, AFAIK:


     A) Large EC-founded, funded and sustained "congregations" which have all the 'Jewish' trappings but purely EC theology:  these are churches in all but name.  The 'Hebrew Roots' movement is part of this EC-supported category.  And this appears to be the largest in number, by several orders of magnitude.  They are theologically EC, down to pretending that 'Jews' are simply one more ethnic group like it's all 'Jewish STYLE, with EC substance' (as per the long C&P posted by Kingdom).


     B)  Smaller, less wealthy groups founded by individual 'rabbis' who practice some combination of Judaism and Christianity(don't ask me how that's possible!) - it seems that these groups coalesce and then break up when the leader dies or retires.  Some of their Christian-raised members have rejected numerous 'Nicean' doctrines and are seeking to 'reconstruct' first century 'Jesus follower' religion.  (though seldom do they seem to acknowledge this)


    C) Individuals and tiny groups of people who apparently DO have a solid Jewish education, who are trying to form some kind of 'synthesis' between normative Judaism and Jesus' teachings.  This group downplays or even opposes standard Christian doctrine like the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.  I think this is the group who tries to describe themselves as 'non-rabbinic Jews'....  They do not reject Talmud as do the EC-sponsored 'synagogues'.  They call for a 'reform' of both Judaism and Christianity.


4) One of the claims made about Jesus is that he was the MbD.  So the legitimate question for us Jews is - Do we see any reason to revise our 'doctrine' on who MbD is and what he is supposed to do, and what his purpose is? 


The above is a repeat of most of a post I made on the 'Baal' thread.  What I HOPE we can manage to do here, is to LOOK at the content, the 'substance' in web sites which ID themselves as part of 'MJ' - and try to figure out what the people writing about MJ actually believe and practice.

How is anyone to begin to decide if MJ is Jewish, and how Jewish, until we've read what MJ's have to say for themselves about their beliefs?

Now while we're at it, we're going to come across 'Nazarene 'Jews'' and 'Ebionites' and possibly some other communities which we wouldn't place within 'normative/rabbinic' Judaism.

Anyone is of course welcome to start with any site they've come across.....  Remember, we are looking at *substance* not form, doctrine not language....

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 5:38PM #2
Posts: 5,267

Um...pardon my ignorance, but is it even possible for someone to claim to be a Jew in belief and reject the Talmud? That sounds like it would be like someone claiming to be a Christian but ignoring the New Testament. Or maybe I'm not making an apt analogy. Anyway, I thought the Talmud was very important to a 'synagogue'.

When I visited an MJ service with a friend of mine a few years ago, the people I talked to didn't seem to be changing much of what I'd been taught as an evangelical Christian. One lady put it this way: 'Just because you believe in Jesus doesn't mean you have to give up your Jewishness." She was talking about customs, 'trappings' or her heritage, not so much belief. I don't know what she believed growing up. The sermon mentioned Jesus and didn't sound all that different from what I'd heard in Baptist churches, but I don't remember much else. There was certainly no 'pounding the pulpit' or anything! That stuff kind of scares me. They were welcoming to us, but not to the point where you felt pressured. I've seen that in some EC churches, although ECs aren't monolithic. I guess I'm saying this to 'back up' what Leah said about the origin of the denomination. I think they'd be the first category, although I didn't realize there were categories.

More where that came from...

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 6:11PM #3
Posts: 343

The Talmud, Beautiful Dreamer is a book written by ancient priest after they had discussed the meaning of the Torah.  I know most Jews don't want to understand this, but it's true.  The Talmud is not the inspired word of God which is why I reject it.  It like taking a concordance of the Christian faith  and using it as the only means to understand Yeshua.  This is a man made concept.

It's very hard for me to accept a book that for many years of my life I was not allowed to read.  It is a book that Jews themselves were not allowed to read.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 6:38PM #4
Posts: 19,045

Dec 4, 2010 -- 6:11PM, Kingdom357 wrote:

The Talmud, Beautiful Dreamer is a book written by ancient priest after they had discussed the meaning of the Torah.  I know most Jews don't want to understand this, but it's true.  The Talmud is not the inspired word of God which is why I reject it.  It like taking a concordance of the Christian faith  and using it as the only means to understand Yeshua.  This is a man made concept.

It's very hard for me to accept a book that for many years of my life I was not allowed to read.  It is a book that Jews themselves were not allowed to read.



I hate to burst your bubble, but, the entire Torah is the inspired word of G-d. The entire cannon of Jewish books, the Torah, the Tanach, the Talmud (both Talmuds actually but why quibble), and all of the rest of accepted commentary is the inspired word of G-d. The entire kit and kaboodle was given by G-d to the Jewish people on Mt. Sinai. The entire Torah hangs together as a single piece, like a tapestry or a quilt. It is made up of many pieces and all of those pieces are from G-d through the pen of man.   

Your boy Joshua, should he ever have lived, was part of the Pharasaic tradition and would have accepted both the written and oral Torah as binding and authoritative. You, of course, are free to believe whatever you want.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 8:54PM #5
Posts: 18,418

"It is a book that Jews themselves were not allowed to read."

That is a complete fabrication and a lie. 

I'd like to know where this rotting peace of pig **** came from (the idea):  it could never have come from within Judaism.

In short,'Kingdom' - PROVE IT.  Go on, show us where you got your filthy disgusting hateful lie .....

Moderated by Bunsinspace on Dec 06, 2010 - 12:19AM
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 9:27PM #6
Posts: 18,418

B_D, you are correct in your understanding.  The Talmud was compiled from the discussions of *rabbis*  and began apparently during the Bbaylonian Exile, although it wasn't codified until much later.

If the Torah is our 'Constitution'; then Talmud is 'SCOTUS case law'...

As for Jews 'not being allowed to read the Talmud':  I'd like to know who had the authority to make such rules?  And why would any Jewish leadership make such an asinie 'rule' - since the sages of the Talmud are respected to this day.  Indeed, some responsa being written even now, may be included in a future compilation...

Now it's certainly true that the Christian Churches tried to suppress the Talmud, burning it along with the Torah - and Jewish people.  This wasn't 'the Catholic Inquisition':  it was done now and then all over Europe (As my husband pointed out, the Shoah was unique only in its scope and brutally efficient organization - but the intent by a Christian community to totally eradicate their Jewish neighbors was a quite common phenomenon).  It was done by Protestants no less than Catholics. 

That saying 'Where they burn books, they will soon be burning people' came out of this experience of Christians trying to burn the Talmud out of existence.

PS:  When my grandfather, the son of a Rabbi, went to cheder (Hebrew School) - it was also referred to as 'Talmud-Torah', after the two texts studied there.  Within the last 150 years and probably all along, the study of Talmud and Torah was considered the greatest career for any Jewish man.  Families tried to find a scholar to marry their daughter to, and were willing to provide financial support for the new household so that they could have the reflected prestige of a scholar in the family.   

For centuries before a Jewish mother's best 'kvell' was 'My son the doctor' - it was 'My son-in-law the scholar'.

And yes, 'scholar' ALWAYS meant 'scholar of Torah and Talmud', 'scholar of Judaism'...


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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 9:34PM #7
Posts: 18,418

The International Allicance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues:


  1. That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Holy Scriptures) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deut. 6:4-9; Prov. 3:1-6; Ps. 119:89, 105; Isa. 48:12-16; Rom. 8:14-17; II Tim. 2:15, 3:16-17).

  2. GOD - We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deut. 6:4), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Gen. 1:1 (Elohim: God); Gen. 1:26 "Let us make man in our image"; Gen. 2:24 Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us ( Gen. 1 & 2), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matt. 28:18-20 (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

    1. GOD THE FATHER (Abba) - John 6:27b; I Cor 1:3; Gal. 1:1; Rev. 3:5, 21; Jer. 3:4, 19; 31:9; Mal. 1:6; Matt. 6:9, 32; Luke 10:21-22; John 1:14; 4:23; 5:17-26; 6:28-46; Rom. 8:14-15.

    2. GOD THE SON (HaBen)

      1. God does have a Son [Ps. 2; Prov. 30:4-6 (cf. Heb. 1); Luke 12:35-37; John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18].

      2. The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin [Isa. 7:14 (cf. Luke 1:30-35)].

      3. The Son is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally [Ps. 110:1 (cf. Heb. 1:13); Isa. 9:6-7; Matt. 28:18-20; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-19; Rev. 3:21 (Heb. 1 - worshipped by angels); Rev. 4:8, 5:5-14].

      4. This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel [ Is. 9:6-7; 11:1; Dan. 9 (esp. verses 20-26); Isa. 53; John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49; Mark 8:29].

      5. He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Num. 24:17; Rev. 22:16).

      6. He is our Passover, the Lamb of God ( I Cor. 5:7; Rev. 5; John 1:29


These people seem to be EC's in all but name....and this is one of the larger organizations.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 9:47PM #8
Posts: 18,418

This was a very interesting page - it shows that there is a large degree of divergence between groups idenitifying themselves as 'MJ", or 'Messianic'.  And some nassty infighting, oooooh!

Of course a look at the excerpt below convinced me that these folks are pretty confused themselves......

Avi ben Mordechai, an Orthodox Sephardic Jew, concurs with Hebrew Roots teachers that the ancient Jewish teachers of the Law hold the answers:

"…Since Sha’ul followed Messiah Y’shua, who also taught the Oral and Written Torah, I submit (at this time in my life) that we should be following in the footsteps of Judaism’s great teachers of G-d’s Law,… I believe that Judaism’s ancient scholars and sages were far more knowledgeable on the Oral Traditions than we could ever hope to be." 10.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 9:50PM #9
Posts: 18,418

Here is the MJAA's representation of their history, in which we can clearly see the 'missionary roots'.  They even state that 'MJ' used to be known as 'Hebrew Christians':

Though Messianic Judaism itself dates back to Yeshua's twelve apostles, its "resurrection" is a relatively new phenomenon.

In the late 1800s, after several large-scale "revivals" among protestant believers in the United States and Europe, many Christians sought to tell Jewish people about Yeshua, or Jesus.  Even as some Jewish people in Europe began to desire to return to the land of Israel and establish a permanent Jewish homeland there, the Lord stirred many Jews to look at the so-called "Christian Bible," or New Testament Scriptures, for themselves.

Centuries of continuing anti-Semitism in the name of Jesus had left the Jewish community skeptical.  But some Jewish men and women did become followers of Yeshua during this time. In the following decades whole congregations of Jewish believers in Jesus were born. This movement was dubbed "Hebrew Christianity."

"They are the Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Messiah!"- Rabbi Sha'ul (Paul), Romans 9:4-5).

"Hebrew Christianity" has since become known as "Messianic Judaism." There are now tens of thousands of Messianic Jews in the United States alone; some estimate as many as 100,000. Messianic synagogues are springing up in almost every major city across the U.S., and Messianic Judaism is quickly growing in other nations throughout North and South America, Europe, Oceania, and the former Soviet republics.


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8 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2010 - 9:54PM #10
Posts: 18,418

And here's what Wiki lists under MJ organizations:

ssianic Movement

NameFormedFocusCurrent (or last) LeaderHeadquartered InCity/Town of Origin
United Messianic Jewish Alliance (UMJA) 2009 A united alliance of congregations pursuing a Messianic Torah centered life. For more information visit: The UMJA is co-led by its Beit Din Spokane, Washington Spokane, Washington
Chosen People Ministries 1894 by Leopold Cohn[1][2] Chosen People Ministries, formerly known as the American Board of Missions to the Jews, is an organization founded in 1894 by Rabbi Leopold Cohn. Its purpose is to demonstrate how the message of the New Testament may be accepted by Jewish people without interfering with their Jewish identity or Jewish way of life. By stressing the Jewish roots of the New Testament message, Chosen People builds a bridge between the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures and their fulfillment in Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah. Through the establishment of Messianic centers and congregations, Chosen People Ministries builds faith communities composed of Jews and others who seek a closer tie with biblical faith and practice. The ministry's website is located at Mitch Glazar New York City Brooklyn, NY
Messianic Bureau International (MBI) 1994, by David Hargis[3] Messianic information service. Linda G. Hargis, Ph.D., President and Academic Dean[4] Hampton, VA[4]
Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) 1915 A former Evangelical Christian organization, known as Hebrew Christian Alliance of America. It later renamed itself in 1975 to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America to try to disassociate itself with its past mission of trying to convert all American Jews to Christianity and instead renamed itself Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, to make it better at evangelism. Although, it hasn't changed much other than its name after 1975 it claims to instead be following Messianic Judaism. MJAA General secretary Joel Chernoff Springfield, Pennsylvania
Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC) 2003 The Association of Messianic Congregations exists to strengthen Messianic Congregations by providing resources, teaching and fellowship that promote Biblical values, proclaims personal faith in Yeshua as the one Atonement for all humanity, and encourages worship through the diversity of Jewish expressions of faith. It is led by a board of directors.[5] Pete Koziar is the current Vice- President. Ledgewood, New Jersey
Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship Messianic Synagogues, Congregations and Fellowships who have chosen to affiliate with the Southern Baptist Convention for mutual support.[6] Bessemer, Alabama
Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations The UMB is a channel of communication and a strategy that will allow us to facilitate the relational unity of Jews and Gentiles in the Messiah and, more importantly, to engage in a ministry of provoking Israel to jealousy so that they will see and desire what is rightfully theirs. After all, the Gospel is to the Jew first, not to reject or remove Israel, but in order that all Israel might be saved. To accomplish this, we must work together as Jews and Gentiles committed to the restoration and salvation of all Israel.[7] Russ Resnik, Executive Director Albuquerque, New Mexico
Word of Messiah Ministries 1996 Word of Messiah Ministries is a Great Commission work that effectively trains and develops Messianic leaders for evangelism, disciple making, and congregation planting among the Jewish people around the world. This work results in more and better Messianic congregations, and Messianic leaders in the worldwide Messianic movement.[8] Sam Nadler, President Charlotte, North Carolina
AMAA Atlantic Messianic Alliance of America 2008 AMAA is a training group and organization that trains and develops Messianic leaders for evangelism. AMAA closely aligns itself with Nazarene Messianic Judaism. AMAA seeks to train messianic leaders to be scripturally solid leaders in the Messianic Movement.[9] [10] Rabbi Crawford, President Enka, North Carolina
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