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7 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 5:26PM #1
Timothy
Posts: 2,427

Do you believe in life after death?


People who have had 'near death experiences' frequently describe feeling changed after the event. They often find themselves concerned about reducing violence and poverty in the world. Children who have had 'NDEs' become much more concerned with reducing violence and poverty in the world than typical children.


Why is this?


I believe it is because people who have had NDEs become subconsciously aware that they are coming back to the world after they have died because there is reincarnation. They desire to reduce poverty and violence in the world because the less poverty and violence there is in the world the less likely it is that they will be born into a life of poverty and violence and go through the suffering that comes with those things after they are reincarnated.


A lot of the time atheism seems to go hand in hand with the belief that 'when you're dead you're dead'. I believe atheists can be more optimistic and that the idea that when a person's body dies their consciousness dies with it is actually unscientific.


In a living body all a person's organs strive to work in harmony. Once the body is dead this no longer happens and the body decomposes. I believe the difference between a living body and a dead one is the presence of a soul. The soul is a composing force. In fact, it is composure. Because it is composure it continuously composes itself and cannot be decomposed and is therefore inviolable. So when the body dies the soul lives on. The soul is energetic, and it is harmonious, and so it seeks a material form to balance with its energetic state. This is the process of reincarnation. The soul leaves the body at the moment of death, and then joins with a new one in the form of a zygote.


Putting aside the little matter of what is or isn't true, the religious types always have the upper hand over the atheists with their offer of life after death. However, this doesn't need to be the case, atheists can offer life after death as well. And in a way that makes a lot more sense than Islam or Christianity or any other belief system.


I am a pantheist, or in Richard Dawkins' words, 'a sexed up atheist'.

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 6:14PM #2
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Sep 4, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Timothy wrote:

Do you believe in life after death?



Yes, the worms that eat my corpse will live on.


People who have had 'near death experiences' frequently describe feeling changed after the event. They often find themselves concerned about reducing violence and poverty in the world. Children who have had 'NDEs' become much more concerned with reducing violence and poverty in the world than typical children.



That's not a valid reason to believe in life after death.


Why is this?


I believe it is because people who have had NDEs become subconsciously aware that they are coming back to the world after they have died because there is reincarnation....



That's nice you believe that. However, I'm going to need solid evidence, not conjecture. NDE's are nothing more than the process of the brain dying.


A lot of the time atheism seems to go hand in hand with the belief that 'when you're dead you're dead'. I believe atheists can be more optimistic and that the idea that when a person's body dies their consciousness dies with it is actually unscientific....



Then you should study a bit more science. There is nothing anywhere that suggests an discarnate consciousness exists. Sticking with the best science available is more optimistic than believing in ghosts. If you wish to pursue this further you'll need to answer a few questions:


Where does this discarnate "consciousness" get it's energy?


What are the byproducts of that energy usage?


How does this thing use that energy?


How can this energy be detected?


Why does this thing reside in animal bodies?


How did these tings come to be?


And thousands of other questions like those.


I am a pantheist, or in Richard Dawkins' words, 'a sexed up atheist'.



He's wrong.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 8:47PM #3
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

All the religious types have to offer is ways to waste precious time when you could be making life better for yourself and your extended face group.  They offer nothing real, just a hope or a dream that having wasted your life there will be some sort of a reward.  At least as a pantheist you don't make some shaman rich off of your dreams.  Enjoy them.  If they don't detract from the important work of living, no harm no foul.   


Sep 4, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Timothy wrote:

the religious types always have the upper hand over the atheists with their offer of life after death. 




Jcarlinbn, community moderator
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 10:56PM #4
Ephemerae_inc.
Posts: 1,589

Sep 4, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Timothy wrote:

Do you believe in life after death?


Life, in general, will certainly go on once I'm six feet under.


My life, however, will cease to continue.


I mean, it wouldn't be much of a death if I continued to live.

He that will not reason is a bigot, he that cannot reason is a fool, and he that dares not reason is a slave.

--- Sir W. Drummond

To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of ignorance.

--- A. Bronson Alcott
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 9:14AM #5
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

"The Worms crawl in, the Worms crawl out;


the Worms play Pinochle on your Snout.


They eat your Clothes, they eat your Hat;


they crawl in skinny, and crawl out fat ... "


 


OR ...


" ... The Dust returns to The Earth as it was, and The Spirit-Breath returns to 'God,' Who gave It ... " -- Ecclesiastes 12:7


 


Sep 4, 2010 -- 6:14PM, mountain_man wrote:


Sep 4, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Timothy wrote:

Do you believe in life after death?



Yes, the worms that eat my corpse will live on.


People who have had 'near death experiences' frequently describe feeling changed after the event. They often find themselves concerned about reducing violence and poverty in the world. Children who have had 'NDEs' become much more concerned with reducing violence and poverty in the world than typical children.



That's not a valid reason to believe in life after death.


Why is this?


I believe it is because people who have had NDEs become subconsciously aware that they are coming back to the world after they have died because there is reincarnation....



That's nice you believe that. However, I'm going to need solid evidence, not conjecture. NDE's are nothing more than the process of the brain dying.


A lot of the time atheism seems to go hand in hand with the belief that 'when you're dead you're dead'. I believe atheists can be more optimistic and that the idea that when a person's body dies their consciousness dies with it is actually unscientific....



Then you should study a bit more science. There is nothing anywhere that suggests an discarnate consciousness exists. Sticking with the best science available is more optimistic than believing in ghosts. If you wish to pursue this further you'll need to answer a few questions:


Where does this discarnate "consciousness" get it's energy?


What are the byproducts of that energy usage?


How does this thing use that energy?


How can this energy be detected?


Why does this thing reside in animal bodies?


How did these tings come to be?


And thousands of other questions like those.


I am a pantheist, or in Richard Dawkins' words, 'a sexed up atheist'.



He's wrong.





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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 10:16AM #6
Eudaimonist
Posts: 2,036

Sep 4, 2010 -- 5:26PM, Timothy wrote:

Do you believe in life after death?



If you mean that, after my death, life -- somewhere -- will continue, then yes.  There is life after death, just not my own.


But if you are talking about souls moving from body to body, or memories from one individual appearing in a future individual, then no.  Nothing unique to me as an individual carries over to future individuals in some direct fashion.


People who have had 'near death experiences' frequently describe feeling changed after the event.



I wouldn't be surprised.  But people can feel changed after various sorts of events that don't involve nearly dying.


I believe it is because people who have had NDEs become subconsciously aware that they are coming back to the world after they have died because there is reincarnation.



Believe what you will, but I find that your speculation is a huge stretch.


A lot of the time atheism seems to go hand in hand with the belief that 'when you're dead you're dead'. I believe atheists can be more optimistic



I think that rational optimism is preferable to speculative optimism.  I could optimistically hope that I will reincarnate in Middle-earth, but this is too speculative to take seriously.


In a living body all a person's organs strive to work in harmony. Once the body is dead this no longer happens and the body decomposes. I believe the difference between a living body and a dead one is the presence of a soul. The soul is a composing force.



I see no scientific reason to believe in souls.


Putting aside the little matter of what is or isn't true



Little matter?


the religious types always have the upper hand over the atheists with their offer of life after death.



Upper hand?  As what?  As salespersons, maybe.


However, this doesn't need to be the case, atheists can offer life after death as well.



Can we?  Yes, we can, but only if we can get reanimation after cyronic suspension working.


 


eudaimonia,


Mark

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 1:55PM #7
Timothy
Posts: 2,427

Thanks for your responses.


Dear mountain man, people who have experienced NDEs describe them as being more real than being awake. They say dreams are very faint experiences while NDEs are completely different. During the time people say they have experienced NDEs brain activity levels are extremely low, neurologists say that according to conventional science the person shouldn't be experiencing any consciousness at all let alone the intense experiences that they describe. Conventional science cannot account for NDEs.


I believe consciousness is formed by the interaction between the soul and the body. The soul does not get its energy from anywhere. It is a continuous flowing pattern of pure electrical activity that is self sustaining.


There are no byproducts to the soul's existence it is pure. The product of its existence is a living biological organism.


The energy of the soul is too pure and subtle to be detected by human detection devices.


The soul gives life to animal bodies because it seeks a material form to harmonize with its energetic state.


All organisms have souls from humans to bacteria. The universe is cyclical and all souls are eternal. The energy of souls is written into the fabric of the universe at the most fundamental level.


Why is Dawkins' wrong in describing pantheists as 'sexed up atheists'? Please give me your answer.


I think religious types offer an insight into humanity, jcarlinbn. Through observing insanity we can understand sanity.


Dear Ephemerae. The idea that death is final is a misconception. Death is just a moment of great change. One body dies, but the soul lives on and a new body is given life and a new organism begins. The matter of the organism is different, but the energy of the soul is the same. On a superficial level, matter is unchanging, energy is constantly changing, on the fundamental level, matter is constantly changing, energy is unchanging. Death is a new beginning as much as it is an end.


I think I am being rationally optimistic Eudaimonist.


I do see a scientific reason to believe in souls. Look at a living body, look at a dead body. What is the difference? The presence of life. Why do we assume that life just disappears? That idea is unscientific. Science tells us that no thing can disappear, it can only change its form... or move somewhere else. So the body dies, the life goes on. This is simple deductive scientific reasoning.


When I described what is or isn't true as a 'little matter' I was being ironic, Mark. I would have thought you would have realised that being an enlightened atheist and all.

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 1:59PM #8
Ken
Posts: 33,858

People who experience NDEs are extremely ill. Indeed, they're close to death. I don't think we can attach much importance to the testimony of sick people.

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 2:06PM #9
Timothy
Posts: 2,427

They get better, Ken. In fact they make full recoveries and are in excellent health and no longer sick at all, yet their description of their NDE is exactly the same.

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2010 - 3:03PM #10
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Sep 5, 2010 -- 1:55PM, Timothy wrote:

Dear mountain man, people who have experienced NDEs describe them as being more real than being awake. They say dreams are very faint experiences while NDEs are completely different. During the time people say they have experienced NDEs brain activity levels are extremely low, neurologists say that according to conventional science the person shouldn't be experiencing any consciousness at all let alone the intense experiences that they describe. Conventional science cannot account for NDEs.



"Conventional" science has fully described NDEs. It's nothing more than the process of the brain dying. Sometimes the oxygen/blood supply gets going again and the person does not die. There is nothing magical or mystical going on. I have experienced a type of hallucination that appeared more real than being awake, more real than reality. Nothing magical or mystical, just my brain reacting to a lack of nutrients after several days of not eating.


If you want to learn what "conventional" science has to say on the matter; here is a nice, easy to understand, article.


I believe consciousness is formed by the interaction between the soul and the body. The soul does not get its energy from anywhere. It is a continuous flowing pattern of pure electrical activity that is self sustaining.



You can believe that all you want. If you want me to believe it you are going to have to do more than make claims about some undefined "soul." There is no such thing as a "pure electrical activity that is self sustaining."


There are no byproducts to the soul's existence it is pure. The product of its existence is a living biological organism.



You cannot make that claim s about a "soul" until you prove it exists. You have neglected to do so. And, how do you know all about these things if you cannot detect them?


Why is Dawkins' wrong in describing pantheists as 'sexed up atheists'? Please give me your answer.



It was a typo. He should have said; "pantheists are mixed up."


I do see a scientific reason to believe in souls. Look at a living body, look at a dead body. What is the difference? The presence of life. Why do we assume that life just disappears? That idea is unscientific. Science tells us that no thing can disappear, it can only change its form... or move somewhere else. So the body dies, the life goes on. This is simple deductive scientific reasoning.



Simply put, when a body dies metabolism stops. The "energy" stops being produced. The "energy" that's there is used up in the process of dying. That the life "just disappears" upon death is entirely scientific.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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