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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 11:21AM #1
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

Here is the chance for those that worship their minds to make their case.  The God of Reason.


Pascal clearly saw that just as one cannot prove the existence of God, that equally no one can disprove God's existence, so in the time it takes to breathe in and out once, Reason and Logic are not  useful tools at all in making this decision that which obviously many reasoners are still grappling.


EVEN IF there was reason that indicated what is claimed, it would be not  possible for you to use it, as the eye cannot behold itself.  There's a little man inside your head looking outward through your eyes taking in information, making decisions, but who is inside his head?  Our wonderful mind always escapes examination because it is always the examiner.


And exactly what does your reason and logic claim?  That there is no God?  I guess there will no more posts on this thread.  If Pascal couldn't do it, and he was seeking the Truth, then I'm pretty sure you will do no better than he.


Who wants to go first?

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 11:44AM #2
REteach
Posts: 14,726

I don't think you get it. 


I believe in God.  I believe in God because I see a vast and wonderful universe.  I believe in God because of my personal experiences of God.


However, reason tells me that:


a) I cannot prove God through science because God is pretty much by definition supernatural and therefore not the purview of science and


b) if humans cannot grasp gravity and muons and the sheer size of the universe, which are concrete and measurable, claiming to fully understand God is sheer hubris and


c) there are people of sincere and deep faith with sincere and deep relationships with the Divine who believe differently than I do.  Therefore, especially given b, it is prideful and stupid to claim that only my understanding of the Divine can be correct.


 


People of faith understand that rationality can only go so far and have the sense not to confuse the two.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 11:46AM #3
REteach
Posts: 14,726

BTW, God is the God of Reason, as God clearly loves mathematics.  The universe is based on mathematics.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 12:10PM #4
Adelphe
Posts: 28,727

Sep 4, 2010 -- 11:21AM, Ed.W wrote:


Here is the chance for those that worship their minds to make their case.  The God of Reason.


Pascal clearly saw that just as one cannot prove the existence of God, that equally no one can disprove God's existence, so in the time it takes to breathe in and out once, Reason and Logic are not  useful tools at all in making this decision that which obviously many reasoners are still grappling.


EVEN IF there was reason that indicated what is claimed, it would be not  possible for you to use it, as the eye cannot behold itself.  There's a little man inside your head looking outward through your eyes taking in information, making decisions, but who is inside his head?  Our wonderful mind always escapes examination because it is always the examiner.


And exactly what does your reason and logic claim?  That there is no God?  I guess there will no more posts on this thread.  If Pascal couldn't do it, and he was seeking the Truth, then I'm pretty sure you will do no better than he.


Who wants to go first?





The only scientifically rational position is agnosticism.


However, God doesn't believe in agnostics or atheists.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe.  Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me.  Amen.
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 12:23PM #5
dio
Posts: 5,038

Define reason. Is reason purpose?


If you are asking does God have a purpose I say yes.


What is that purpose?  Wearing my Christian hat, I'll say, to experience the love that exists between a parent and a child.


On second thought, or did he make us to save us?


Either way God had a reason.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 12:25PM #6
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

No, I do get it.  But that's not the point.


I hear the words reason and logic ad nauseum on this board, and it is most often coming from non believers, REteach.


You are a professing believer so I don't know why you seemed to take the OP so personally. 


Even "The Reasoners" shouldn't take anything personally.  I'd just like to give them a dedicated platform to talk about it in the context of a faith in God.


Sorry if somehow I struck a nerve again.


 

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 12:29PM #7
dio
Posts: 5,038

Can you restate the point Ed, I'm not sure I know the point either?

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 12:41PM #8
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

The point is that reason and logic cannot be used to assess these matters of faith, because I say it would require one to step outside of himself to do it.


But here is a thread for any who disagree to give it their best shot.  I'm just curious about all this logic worship.  Let's have a go at it.  So far it's just been dealt with peripherally.  Thought maybe we could take it head on.

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 1:10PM #9
LeahOne
Posts: 16,396

Sep 4, 2010 -- 12:41PM, Ed.W wrote:


The point is that reason and logic cannot be used to assess these matters of faith, because I say it would require one to step outside of himself to do it.


But here is a thread for any who disagree to give it their best shot.  I'm just curious about all this logic worship.  Let's have a go at it.  So far it's just been dealt with peripherally.  Thought maybe we could take it head on.




To me, 'know' is based on fact, not faith.   The idea of 'worshipping' logic is nonsense to me:  it's simply one tool to use in trying to evaluate what we perceive.


Of course, if one worships other than YHVH Himself, one is an idolator in my faith.  So when your answer comes that you *know* because of Bible verses you quote as proof - I have to wonder if you've not confused YHVH with our written record of His Word to us.  For all the Scriptures of all the Faiths are still written down by humans.  (Since we do not still have the golden plates the Angel Moroni directed Joseph Smith to find....)


Now it seems to me that either everyone must acknowledge the Scriptures - ALL of them! - are human-touched copies, or demonstrate how this or that Book of Faith has remained intact and exact since its inception.


BTW, the term 'nonbeliever' is arrogant and offensive and I wish intelligent people wouldn't use it.  It's quite confusing to bandy about a word which has only a relative meaning.  If by 'unbelievers' or 'nonbelievers' one means 'not Christians' - then why not simply use the informative term?


It's clearly not, after all, as though Christians are the only people who think of themselves as 'believers'!   Seeking to claim ownership of the word 'believers' is insulting to everyone else.  It further suggests a hugely unrealistic world-view that there are only Christians and atheists (which is what 'nonbeliever' actually means).


 

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2010 - 1:28PM #10
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

The word believe to the Christian means to, "trust in/rely upon/adhere to" [Christ]


I don't see your offense. 

‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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