Hello again, truthseeker ~

Another good question...  First, according to our Sacred Texts, science and religion must agree.  When they do not, one is either in error or steeped in superstition.  The Kingdom of God is a spiritual place unconfined by time and space as we know it and isn't populated by mortal flesh.  Christians testify that Jesus arose to the Father in the flesh and sits at God's right hand.  He is expected to descend from the sky in that same physical form "with the clouds" thousands of years later.  How could this be?

"In the flesh" would mean that IF Jesus literally arose up into the sky in bodily form, 1) the body would require oxygen, known not to exist above a certain level, and would probably die from lack of it; and 2) the body would not be able to withstand extreme cold temperatures above a certain level and probably would otherwise die from hypothermia.  In either event, a dead body would fall from the sky and the Christ spirit return to the Father.

It could also be asked why only the apostles saw this astonishing miracle.  A human form elevating into the sky would certainly have created quite a stir, making converts of any and all disbelievers viewing such a spectacle.  There is no record of such in the Bible.

Dear WC, and Aka --

Aug 12, 2010 -- 11:16AM, world citizen wrote:

Hello again, truthseeker ~

Another good question...  First, according to our Sacred Texts, science and religion must agree.  When they do not, one is either in error or steeped in superstition.  The Kingdom of God is a spiritual place unconfined by time and space as we know it and isn't populated by mortal flesh.  Christians testify that Jesus arose to the Father in the flesh and sits at God's right hand.  He is expected to descend from the sky in that same physical form "with the clouds" thousands of years later.  How could this be?

"In the flesh" would mean that IF Jesus literally arose up into the sky in bodily form, 1) the body would require oxygen, known not to exist above a certain level, and would probably die from lack of it; and 2) the body would not be able to withstand extreme cold temperatures above a certain level and probably would otherwise die from hypothermia.  In either event, a dead body would fall from the sky and the Christ spirit return to the Father.

It could also be asked why only the apostles saw this astonishing miracle.  A human form elevating into the sky would certainly have created quite a stir, making converts of any and all disbelievers viewing such a spectacle.  There is no record of such in the Bible.

I don't think most Christians accept that Jesus literally rose into the sky with the same body he died with, one similar to yours or mine.  Yet you have to admit, the Bible does say he ate fish!

Aka_me, you asked how to reconcile it with St. Paul:

St. Paul says it most clearly:

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.  The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. (2 Cor.  15:42-44)

and then later he says

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.  Listen, I tell you a mystery:  We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in a flesh, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true "Death has been swallowed up in victory." (2 Cor. 15:50-54)

So clearly the only way to reconcile with this, IS that Jesus really did walk out of a tomb -- yet he had a glorified body, not a spiritual one.  It was not meant for Jesus to appear to everyone who persecuted him, for that time had not yet come.  It was meant for the Apostles to spread the message and the believers to walk by faith, and not by sight. 

John says:

Now Thomas (called Didymus) one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.  So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"  But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 

A week later his disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"  Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands.  Reach out your hand and put it into my side.  Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him,  "Because you have seen me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 19:24-29)

John goes on to say that he did a lot more other miracles which aren't recorded in the book, but they are written so that we might believe.  It is always important to look at Scripture verses in context, and that way we are not just reading our assumptions and ideas into what it never actually said. 

Sincerely,

Truth Seeker

Dear Mytmouse,

I understand that.  However I was only asking the question to help me figure out how I feel about the Bahai Faith in general.  To me progressive revelation should never contradict what was revealed in the previous tradition's scripture, and in this case it appears to do so.

Sincerely,

Truth Seeker

"O ye beloved of the Lord! Beware, beware lest ye hesitate and waver. Let not fear fall upon you, neither be troubled nor dismayed. Take ye good heed lest this calamitous day slacken the flames of your ardor, and quench your tender hopes. Today is the day for steadfastness and constancy. Blessed are they that stand firm and immovable as the rock, and brave the storm and stress of this tempestuous hour. They, verily, shall be the recipients of God's grace, verily shall receive His divine assistance, and shall be the truly victorious. They shall shine amidst mankind with a radiance which the dwellers of the Pavilion of Glory laud and magnify. To them is proclaimed this celestial call, revealed in His most holy Book: "O My people! Be not perplexed should the star of My presence disappear, and the ocean of My utterance be stilled. In My presence among you there was the wisdom of God, and in My absence from you there is yet another, inscrutable to all but the One, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of effulgent glory, and will graciously aid whosoever striveth for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the celestial Concourse and a company of Our chosen angels."

The Sun of Truth, that most great Light, has set upon the horizon of the world to rise with deathless splendor over the Realm of the Limitless. In His most holy Book He calleth the firm and steadfast of His friends: "O peoples of the world! Should the radiance of My beauty be veiled, and the temple of My body be hidden, feel not perturbed, nay arise and bestir yourselves, that My Cause may triumph, and My Word be heard by all mankind."

THE NEW HEAVEN, THE NEW EARTH

O ye beloved of God! O ye children of His Kingdom!

Verily, verily the new heaven and the new earth are come. The holy City, new Jerusalem, hath come down from on high in the form of a maid of heaven, veiled, beauteous, and unique, and prepared for reunion with her lovers on earth. The angelic company of the celestial Concourse have joined in a call that hath rung throughout the universe, all loudly and mightily acclaiming: "Hail, O City of God! Abide Thou, and make Thy habitation with the pure, virtuous and holy servants of Thine; for they are Thy people, and Thou art their Lord."

He hath wiped away their tears, kindled their light, rejoiced their hearts and enraptured their souls. Death shall no more overtake them, neither shall sorrow, crying and tribulation afflict them. The Lord God Omnipotent hath been enthroned in His Kingdom and hath made all things new. This is the truth, and what truth greater than the Revelation of St. John the divine? He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the One that will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life, and bestow upon the sick the remedy of true salvation. He whom such grace aideth is verily he that receiveth the most glorious heritage from the prophets of God and His holy ones. The Lord will be his God, and he His dearly-beloved son.

Rejoice, then, O ye beloved of the Lord and His chosen ones, and ye the children of God and His people, raise your voice and laud and magnify the Lord, the Most High; for His light hath beamed forth, His signs have appeared, and the billows of His rising ocean have scattered on every shore many a precious pearl.

SPIRITUAL SPRING

Do ye know in what cycle ye are created and in what age ye exist? This is the age of the Blessed Perfection and this is the time of the Greatest Name! This is the century of the Manifestation, the age of the Sun of the Horizons and the beautiful springtime of His Holiness the Eternal One!

The earth is in motion and growth; the mountains, hills and prairies are green and pleasant; the bounty is overflowing; the mercy universal; the rain is descending from the cloud of mercy; the brilliant Sun is shining; the full moon is ornamenting the horizon of ether; the great ocean-tide is flooding every little stream; the gifts are successive; the favors consecutive; and the refreshing breeze is blowing, wafting the fragrant perfume of the blossoms. Boundless treasure is in the hand of the King of Kings! Lift the hem of thy garment in order to receive it.

If we are not happy and joyous at this season, for what other season shall we wait and for what other time shall we look?

This is the time for growing; the season for joyous gathering! Take the cup of the Testament in thy hand; leap and dance with ecstasy in the triumphal procession of the Covenant! Lay your confidence in the everlasting bounty, turn to the presence of the generous God; ask assistance from the Kingdom of Abha; seek confirmation from the Supreme World; turn thy vision to the horizon of eternal wealth; and pray for help from the Source of Mercy!

Soon shall ye see the friends attaining their longed-for destination and pitching their tents, while we are but in the first day of our journey.

This period of time is the Promised Age, the assembling of the human race to the "Resurrection Day" and now is the great "Day of Judgment." Soon the whole world, as in springtime, will change its garb. The turning and falling of the autumn leaves is past; the bleakness of the winter time is over. The new year hath appeared and the spiritual springtime is at hand. The black earth is becoming a verdant garden; the deserts and mountains are teeming with red flowers; from the borders of the wilderness the tall grasses are standing like advance guards before the cypress and jessamine trees; while the birds are singing among the rose branches like the angels in the highest heavens, announcing the glad-tidings of the approach of that spiritual spring, and the sweet music of their voices is causing the real essence of all things to move and quiver.

SERVE THE KINGDOM

When the darkness of ignorance and heedlessness concerning the realm of eternity and bereavement from the True One had encircled the universe, then the resplendent Luminary dawned and the brilliant Light illumined the horizon of the East. Hence, the Sun of Reality shone forth, scattering the sparkling lights of the Kingdom to the East and to the West. Those who had seeing eyes found the Most Great Glad-Tidings, began to cry the call, "O blessed are we! O blessed are we!" -- and have beheld the reality of things in themselves, have discovered the mysteries of the Kingdom, were released from superstition and doubts, perceived the lights of Truth and became so intoxicated with the cup of the love of God, that, wholly forgetting themselves and the world while dancing, they ran with utmost joy and ecstasy to the city of Martyrdom, sacrificing their minds and their lives upon the altar of Love.

But those who were blinded became astonished and on account of these joyous acclamations were bewildered and beginning to cry, "Where is the light?" and said, "We do not behold any light, we do not see any rising sun! It is void of any truth! This is pure imagination!" 

However, they have hastened bat-like in the darkness below the ground, and according to their own thoughts they have found a little comfort and tranquillity. Nevertheless, it is yet the early dawn and the strength of the heat and the rays of the Sun of Truth have not yet made their torrid and complete impression. When it reacheth the zenith, the heat will interpenetrate with such great intensity that it will move and spur to the greatest velocity even the insects below the earth. Although they are not able to behold the light, yet the penetration of the heat will move and agitate all of them.

Consequently, O ye friends of God, be ye thankful that in the Day of the Effulgence ye have turned your faces to the Orb of the regions and beheld the Lights! Ye have received a portion from the rays of Truth and are endowed with a share from the Everlasting Outpouring. Therefore, ye must not rest one minute, but thank Him for this bestowal.

Be ye not seated and silent! Diffuse the glad-tidings of the Kingdom far and wide to the ears, promulgate the Word of God, and put into practice the advices and covenants of God; that is, arise ye with such qualities and attributes that ye may continually bestow life to the body of the world, and nurse the infants of the universe up to the station of maturity and perfection. Enkindle with all your might in every meeting the light of the love of God, gladden and cheer every heart with the utmost loving-kindness, show forth your love to the strangers just as you show forth to your relations. If a soul is seeking to quarrel, ask ye for reconciliation; if he blame you, praise him; if he give you a deadly poison, bestow ye an all-healing antidote; if he createth death, administer ye eternal life; if he becometh a thorn, change ye into roses and hyacinths. Perchance, through such deeds and words, this darkened world will become illuminated, this terrestrial universe will become transformed into a heavenly realm, and this satanic prison become a divine court; warfare and bloodshed be annihilated, and love and faithfulness hoist the tent of unity upon the apex of the world."

 (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 349)

I am coming to realize that Christians do not like allegory and resist it because of how it was used in the Middle Ages when everything (including nature) was allegorized concerning Christ.  Nonetheless, it seems illogical to me to refuse allegory when evidence of its use is included (and identified) in the Bible as allegory a few times but not always.  It has been around since before Plato (c 400 BC) when he used it in "the cave."  It was a part of classical rhetorical training.  Why wouldn't the Bible use it without identifying the metaphors as well? 

In the Bible, the church is considered as the body of Christ.  You can see it in Col 1:18 where christ is the "head" of the body of the church and in 1 Cor 12:27 where the believers (members) of the church are identified as the body of Christ.

Did Thomas see the "body" of Christ in the believers who arose to follow His teachings?  I think so.