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Switch to Forum Live View Seal of the Prophets
3 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2012 - 10:25PM #21
Kalzera
Posts: 260

Just a minor point of clarification -- 


Most self-proclaimed Muslims who support violent Jihad and persecution of religious/ethnic minorities aren't able to cite the Qur'án in support of their actions. However, those who don't support violence and persecution are almost always able to cite the Qur'án. The following link is for the text, but you can also find the video documentary online. 


www.gallup.com/press/104209/who-speaks-i...


When it comes down to it, terrorism is a political tactic for people who want a power trip, not a real religious phenomona. 



And seeing as all Muslims as a statement of faith view Muhammad as the last prophet, I don't think their respective understanding of "seal" in anyway impacts how they view minorities. In fact, I meant quite a few Muslims last time I was at a BetterTogether conference. www.ifyc.org/better-together

However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end - Bhagavad Gita 4:11

"Knowledge is a light which God casteth into the heart of whomsoever He willeth" - The Four Valleys; Hadith
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2012 - 6:32PM #22
Kalzera
Posts: 260

And to add a source to my earlier reply to the OP:


The Ahmadis are stereotyped as claiming Bukhari 8.214 says "and had Ibrahim lived, he would have been a Prophet of God"


It actually reads (in most of the English versions I find online):


Narrated Ismail:


I asked Abi `Aufa, "Did you see Ibrahim, the son of the Prophet ?" He said, "Yes, but he died in hisearly childhood. Had there been a Prophet after Muhammad then his son would have lived, but thereis no Prophet after him."



So there was some sense of belief that Ibrahim's son might have been a Prophet, or that Prophethood would've continued had he lived.



Also, I said earlier that the first Muslim community had a belief in a Prophet succeeding Muhammad. I should probably clarify that. Not only does the above hadith testify to something along those lines, but: the various "imposters," as they've since come to be known, only had success because there was belief in certain sections of the then-Islamic world that Muhammad would have a succeeding Prophet. Not all Muslims believe that, and the "Orthodox" Islam, as we now know it, is what won out over the heterodox/heretical beliefs that there would be successive prophets. 


However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end - Bhagavad Gita 4:11

"Knowledge is a light which God casteth into the heart of whomsoever He willeth" - The Four Valleys; Hadith
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2012 - 3:16AM #23
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,905

Feb 6, 2012 -- 6:32PM, Kalzera wrote:



Also, I said earlier that the first Muslim community had a belief in a Prophet succeeding Muhammad. I should probably clarify that. Not only does the above hadith testify to something along those lines, but: the various "imposters," as they've since come to be known, only had success because there was belief in certain sections of the then-Islamic world that Muhammad would have a succeeding Prophet. Not all Muslims believe that, and the "Orthodox" Islam, as we now know it, is what won out over the heterodox/heretical beliefs that there would be successive prophets. 





Indeed, to interpret "Seal" as "Last", and "prophet" as "any bringer of a new Book from God", is mainly driven by the simple fear to face the personal challenge that the Bahá'í Faith poses to all true Muslims. 


Those who understand classical Arabic would for instance see the obvious truth and the correct future tense of the following corrected translation of the first ayat of the Surih Al-Bayán (098, Clear Evidence). The past-tense-mistranslation is found in almost every English translation of the Qur'án. The incorrectly rendered versions translate either as past tense (Rodwell, Sales) or as ambivalent (Yusuf Ali) something that is clearly a future tense in Arabic. This consistent deviation from the original Arabic has been made by recommendation of orthodox Muslim scholars simply to dilute its uncomfortably clear reference to a future Messenger and a future Book (or, in fact, future Books in plural):


"The unbelievers among the people of the Book, and the polytheists, shall not waver until the Clear Evidence comes to them, an Apostle from God, reciting pure pages wherein are valuable Books. Nor were the people of the Book divided until after the Clear Evidence came to them."


In the Arabic original of the first verse, a Clear Evidence with pages and books "shall come" (future tense). On the other hand, the fourth verse refers to another Clear Evidence which had already come. This would imply a contradiction unless the Prophet is in fact making a reference to two Clear Evidences, one of Muhammad and another one in the future by "an Apostle from God reciting pure pages where in are valuable Books." Interestingly enough, the Prophet brought just one Book and referred to his Book singularly in the Qur'án. Bahá'u'lláh brought many Books.


But to continue debating in this vein with a Muslim who has made up his mind about the "last prophet" is generally futile. What is 'clearly evident' ;) is that the Bahá'ís and the Muslims can keep on debating on the correct interpretations of these verses and others endlessly and call one another either pro-biased or anti-biased, only to find out the utter fruitlessness of such contention. The ultimate proof is the spiritual effect and impact that Bahá'u'lláh's words have on a sincere Muslim student of Bahá'u'lláh's Writings -- a student who is intimately familiar with the substance and the tone of the Qur'án.


Kind regards,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 9:53AM #24
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,905

Muslim comedian Ahmed Ahmed.


Jewish comedian Adam Sandler.


Bahá'í comedian Omid Djalili.


Actually out of these three I like Ahmed Ahmed the best.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 4:31PM #25
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,258

Adam Sandler is a comedian? Hmmm could have fooled me. Smile


Mel Brooks is a comedian.


Woody Allen is a comedian.


Even Jerry Seinfeld in a comedian.


Adam Sandler, not so much


Although "You Don't Mess With The Zohan" is a work of prophetic and comedic genius Smile

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 4:51PM #26
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

May 6, 2012 -- 4:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Adam Sandler is a comedian? Hmmm could have fooled me.


Mel Brooks is a comedian.


Woody Allen is a comedian.


Even Jerry Seinfeld in a comedian.


Adam Sandler, not so much


Although "You Don't Mess With The Zohan" is a work of prophetic and comedic genius 



you are correct Adam Sandler is not a comedian.


Mel Brooks is above and beyond. Have you ever seen "Twelve Chairs"?

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 3:43AM #27
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,905

May 6, 2012 -- 4:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Adam Sandler is a comedian? Hmmm could have fooled me. Smile


Mel Brooks is a comedian.


Woody Allen is a comedian.


Even Jerry Seinfeld in a comedian.


Adam Sandler, not so much


Although "You Don't Mess With The Zohan" is a work of prophetic and comedic genius Smile




Okay okay, Adam Sandler doesn't count as a proper Jewish comedian. But if this guy doesn't, who the heck does? Cool


Wabbit


P.S. I have to admit I've never seen Zohan but judging by the trailer I surmise I shouldn't bring any popcorn to the theater.


P.S. And yes, Mel Brooks is a modern classic.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:54PM #28
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,258

Lilwabbit


I am not much of a Sasha Baron Cohen fan. He is much too crude, rude, and obnoxious.


When you see Zohan you have to remember to bring Hummus and Pita

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:58PM #29
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,905

I must admit I don't like Sacha that much either and for the very same reasons. But my point was that he qualifies as a Jewish comedian. :)


Zohan seems a trifle crude too. Tongue Out

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:46PM #30
Aka_me
Posts: 12,322

May 6, 2012 -- 4:51PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Mel Brooks is above and beyond. Have you ever seen "Twelve Chairs"?



there's a reason we don't see Laurel and Hardy, or The Three Stooges on tv...


times change. Jerry Lewis was certainly funny in his day, but that's not funny any more.


Mel Brooks was also funny in his day, but "what defines funny" has changed.

happy will be the day that my tax dollars are not killing innocent women and children in war crimes and crimes against humanity as we shove our head up each other's WhoHa thinking our ends justifies our means while demonizing the enemy for doing the same, when it is we who are the original terrorists. and have an active role creating today's turmoil.
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