Aug 2, 2010 -- 1:34PM, nieciedo wrote:

...1.) is the more crucial. Nations exist first and foremost in the hearts and minds of their people. If the will to nationhood is strong enough, it can prevail over the might of empires.

BS"D

I must disagree with this classical perspective as demonstrably invalid for the modern political world.  In today's world political statehood is achieved through force alone.  Any other definition of nation is now relegated to the status of tribe, peoplehood, ethnicity or mere social grouping.  I hope the day comes when your classical definition again applies, but for now it is definitely lex talionis and no modern nation - with the exception of Holland and that is not destined to continue because of radicalized Islam - exists by the will of the people but by military and economic compulsion.  And that is how reality has been since King Shaul AFAIK and obviously way before since Israel was not the first State - only copying other States against the advice of Shmuel.

I dream for a day when people are free in a national environment to chart their own destinies because the State exists by their will - as that is the paradigm in Torah with regard to the priesthood (the defacto State officials in the wilderness) - but that time is not now.  I will study how that should come about and work for that to be the case in the world to come.

IMHO you are like a prophet in this and I pray for the day when your ideal will be true for us all.

Aug 2, 2010 -- 2:48PM, nieciedo wrote:

I'm not sure how you can disagree with me, when I'm saying essentially the same thing.

Force needs will behind it. If one does not have the will to exert force, force is useless.

BS"D

I am disagreeing with you because you specfically maintain that the force exerted is the "will of the people" which is demonstrably false.  Force is always the will of a tyrant or incited mob and hardly ever that of the people - never that of the people in any modern State except Holland.  Everywhere else, following a leader into war is coerced by false allegations of patriotism or threats of execution or a lifetime of imprisonment for treason.

Your point is the same false equation made by radicals such as that equating America with the great satan or Iran with an axis of evil.  It ignores the reality that the people are being forced to engage in violence rather than willingly sanctioning it.  If you don't believe mr look at the struggles between the government of every violent nation on Earth (including the USA) and its educated student population.  Remember Kent State?  How about Tienanmen Square?  October Revolution?  Nazi Putsch?  Green Revolution in Iran?  And just about every anti-US action in South America and Afghanistan.  It's NEVER the people's will to make war.  Even in Abraham's time.  Certainly not Moses' time as is self-evident in the literal text.

In radicalized scenarios such as fanatic suicide bombers - they are tricked into dying as their trainers would never do so themselves.  So it is with all warfare throughout human history - few generals, commanders or kings ever die in warfare except in fairy tales.  Those who die are the exploited people who would never make war on their own as the causes of war are not the causes of real people but of tyrants and other insane powermongers.

The "will of the people" is the best articulation of the positive sceario of the potential world to come.  Currently we are living the path of the negative scenario where freedom is dying.

What do kumquats taste like? I've never had one, does that mean I'm not qualified to host the Discuss Judaism and Kumquats forum? :)