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Switch to Forum Live View OT: The Church and what it was meant to be...
4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 2:47AM #1
moksha8088
Posts: 4,911

Here is a snippet from another post by JenKS, that I thought would make an excellent topic for discussion in its own right.



When did Jesus teach the church should be like a corporation?  Of course modern day American churches have their CEO (Pastor/Bishop/Prophet/Whatever), their employees (Members), various committess and focus groups, they measure success by metrics (attendence/new members) and sell their product (thinly disguised evangelism).  No, if you look time after time after time in the NT, the metaphor was for the church to resemble a family.  I see none of that in (most) modern day American churches (LDS or otherwise).


 


When did Jesus say that dressing up was part of the gig? When did He claim 99% of the dogma that Christian churches spew today?




That part about the Church resembling a family is most intriguing.  As to the questions at the end, I would be interested in hearing poster's answers.

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 4:57AM #2
Theo
Posts: 4,679

Dogma is Christian doctrine, and Jesus taught a lot of doctrine. The Apostles developed His doctrine, and the Historic Church developed the apostols doctrine. In many cases great rivers start out as small streams - this is nothing remarkable but is very natural.


In the case of Christianity, doctrine became more complex as people reinterpeted the Word of Christ and the Apostles to mean things they never taught or believed. The leaders of the Church then had the duty of not only teaching the word of Christ and the apostles, but of also opposing the false teachings of heretics.


One could wish that things were as simple today as they were 2000 years ago, but the reality is, things were not simple 2000 years ago either. They had their debates back then, we have our debates today... but if you want to avoid all that, get a good Bible, read it and believe it. In side the NT you will find only the words of Christ and the Apostles.


~ Theophilus


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 2:20PM #3
Aka_me
Posts: 11,888

Jul 24, 2010 -- 4:57AM, Theo wrote:

Dogma is Christian doctrine, and Jesus taught a lot of doctrine.



I'm not entirely sure I understand the difference between dogma, ritual, and doctrine.


can you give an example of a doctrine taught by Jesus?


and if there is any difference between dogma, ritual, and doctrine?

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 7:53PM #4
Theo
Posts: 4,679

 


AKA ME:

I'm not entirely sure I understand the difference between dogma, ritual, and doctrine. can you give an example of a doctrine taught by Jesus? and if there is any difference between dogma, ritual, and doctrine?



Well dogma is not a word we use often in “Evangelical Christianity.” If I am right it is most often used in Catholic circles and in Seminary classes that deal with dogmatics. Even so, dogma is doctrine, and doctrine is a word that can be used as a synonym for teaching(s) for a specific teaching or set of teachings.


Rituals are practices based upon dogma or doctrine. For example, the rite of Baptism is based upon extensive theological deliberations. While it may take only a few minutes to baptize somebody, the theology behind the practice is the dogma – doctrine, and entire college course can be taught on the subject.


As far as a doctrine taught by Jesus – here is one.


 Matthew 19:  3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”


4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”


8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”


10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”


 11 But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.”


 Jesus taught that marriage was between a man and a woman. And that this was how God intended marriage from the beginning. And that God never intended for men to divorce their wives – and therefore Jesus forbid the practice of divorce.


 When His disciples objected to His position against divorce – He gave them the option of remaining celibate.


Christianity developed this teaching into a more all encompassing teaching regarding the sacrament of marriage, its indivisibility, and sadly other Churches have come along and opened things up for divorce among Christians for practically any reason involving sex and infidelity.


 This example does not distinguish between beliefs and practice that much, but it is one of many doctrines that Jesus taught.


 ~ Theophilus

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2010 - 10:42PM #5
Aka_me
Posts: 11,888

Jul 25, 2010 -- 7:53PM, Theo wrote:

But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given



thank you. that was the quote I have been looking for for a very long time.


it says "don't expect the non-believers to have to obey" which is why Christianity has NO PLACE legislating morality onto non-believers when it comes to Prop8.

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 2:28AM #6
Theo
Posts: 4,679

Wow - i didn't see that one coming.


~ Theo

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 8:55AM #7
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Jul 26, 2010 -- 2:28AM, Theo wrote:


Wow - i didn't see that one coming.


~ Theo



Perhaps not, but it fits in with the quote in the OP.  We are to be a family, of equals, each recognizing that we are alike only in our love of God and in our efforts to be as loving as possible toward one another.  It has always struck me that the idea of one human making spiritual rules for another was completely anathema to the teachings of Christ, that that is what He came to end forever.


As an example, if you (a general "you") believe that homosexual or inter-racial marriage, or marriage between people of different blood types or heights, is wrong, your bullying of those who wish to enter such marriages, your prohibition of them, in no way makes your moral case for you, bullying NEVER does.  Bullying automatically puts you in the wrong, and is seen as an admission that you know you are wrong.  All you can do is explain why you believe it's wrong, and let those who wish it come to figure that out for themselves, with the help of God, or allow yourself to be corrected if you are the one in error to forbid such a thing.  The forcible infliction of your (still a general "you") opinion on those who don't share it is wrong all by itself, it is doing harm to your neighbor, strictly forbidden by Christ.  If two people love one another, no law can possibly change that, you can only make their lives more difficult.  That is the ONLY possible "benefit" to such legal bullying, and that is in strict and outright contradiction to what Christ taught with every teaching.


People speak of Satan as controlling us, or controlling events, or as responsible for all the evil in the world.  I don't believe in a separate entity that does that, in some god of evil.  I believe that man's and woman's own selfishness and ego are enough to explain all the evil in the world.  Jesus chose "commoners" to be His disciples, people of no rank or standing or wealth.  They were all exactly equal to one another, and lived, traveled, and taught together, disagreeing with one another often, but all of them recognizing that not one single one of them was any better than any other, or held the least bit more authority.  Look at organized religion and note that there is not the least resemblence between these religions and the group of Apostles that started it all.  The Mormon church is a good example, but far from alone - it's AAAALLLLLLLL about rank and heirarchy, not the least iota of which ever appeared among the Apostles.  In the same way, religions that try to foist their own ideas of what should be into law, and commit that bullying in the name of God, are classic examples of the OPPOSITE of Jesus and His followers.


Prop 8, and laws like it, are only bullying attempts at legislating malice.  There is nothing these bullies can do to end the love between two people of different heights (to change the example), and everyone with the mental competence to vote knows that full well, so malicious bullying is all that is left.  There is nothing remotely Christ-like about that, it is not only the absence of the love we are commanded to show one another, it is the presence of hatefulness.


Whatever you feel is wrong about two people of different heights marrying, you cannot bully them out of that love.  The Christ-like, the Christian thing to do, is to show by loving example how much better your life is when you live it as you think you should.  Pray for them to see the light, but make certain your prayer includes a request that YOU see the light, if you are wrong.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 3:23PM #8
Jen_ks
Posts: 1,041

Jul 24, 2010 -- 2:47AM, moksha8088 wrote:


That part about the Church resembling a family is most intriguing.  As to the questions at the end, I would be interested in hearing poster's answers.





JMO (and why Mormonism does not fit into it):


After teaching Disciple for many years and based on personal experience, I truly believe "the church" is as simple as a gathering of believers and following the 2 most basic commandments given to us in the NT.  Anything above and beyond that is speculation and borderline unnecessary.  The moment we start worrying more about the after-life than the life we have here, then we have failed.


Of course, this is an over-simplified version of my beliefs, but in short, that is it.


 

~host of the Mormon Debate Board~
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 3:29PM #9
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

Jul 26, 2010 -- 3:23PM, Jen_ks wrote:


Jul 24, 2010 -- 2:47AM, moksha8088 wrote:


That part about the Church resembling a family is most intriguing.  As to the questions at the end, I would be interested in hearing poster's answers.





JMO (and why Mormonism does not fit into it):


After teaching Disciple for many years and based on personal experience, I truly believe "the church" is as simple as a gathering of believers and following the 2 most basic commandments given to us in the NT.  Anything above and beyond that is speculation and borderline unnecessary.  The moment we start worrying more about the after-life than the life we have here, then we have failed.


Of course, this is an over-simplified version of my beliefs, but in short, that is it.


 



I agree completely.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2010 - 3:48PM #10
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,434
Disciple is a re-expression of Wesley's "small group" method, where the urban poor of England were taught accountability, perfection, and where educaition was stressed (The Methodists invented Sunday School.).

I would agree that church is as simple as "Where two or three....," but I'd be curious how that compares with Wesley's connectionalism, i.e. that the church is always joined to the church everywhere.
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"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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