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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 6:55PM #8061
JCarlin
Posts: 8,225

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 7:00PM #8062
Clardan
Posts: 1,378

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.




Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, no matter that I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 7:30PM #8063
Ken
Posts: 33,858

Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:00PM, Clardan wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.




Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?



He refuses to acknowledge the distinction between belief in gods and the actual existence of gods.




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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 7:50PM #8064
Clardan
Posts: 1,378

Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:30PM, Ken wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:00PM, Clardan wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.




Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?



He refuses to acknowledge the distinction between belief in gods and the actual existence of gods.





Or that between belief in fairies and the actual existence of them? I hope not.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, no matter that I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:06PM #8065
JCarlin
Posts: 8,225

Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:00PM, Clardan wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.



Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?


You seem to be asserting that in order for a God to "exist" it must have a physical presence sitting on a golden throne somewhere that a believer can lead you to. There are believers who assert exactly that but you have to die to get there.  Personally I have no interest in dying to find out whether or not God exists in that sense. However, I have observable data that God exists as a conceptual entity with real effects on the minds of believers. 


You may of course define God out of existence by insisting on a physical instantiation but if you want to discuss God you should stick to reality which is a conceptual entity.  I have not found any such conceptual entities useful, and in fact most of them are social disasters, but it does not help discussion of God/s to simply argue that the throne is brass.

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:24PM #8066
Ken
Posts: 33,858

Mar 7, 2013 -- 8:06PM, JCarlin wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:00PM, Clardan wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.



Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?


You seem to be asserting that in order for a God to "exist" it must have a physical presence sitting on a golden throne somewhere that a believer can lead you to. There are believers who assert exactly that but you have to die to get there.  Personally I have no interest in dying to find out whether or not God exists in that sense.


You can easily rule out the existence of such a God through the use of reason. There isn't the slightest need to die.


Mar 7, 2013 -- 8:06PM, JCarlin wrote:

However, I have observable data that God exists as a conceptual entity with real effects on the minds of believers.


Can you really not distinguish an actual entity from a belief? You have my condolences.


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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:25PM #8067
MidnightCougar
Posts: 832

Mar 7, 2013 -- 9:01AM, teilhard wrote:


I do agree that in these "Discussiins" we very often "talk past each other" because we are NOT "speaking the same Language" ...


Mar 7, 2013 -- 12:10AM, MidnightCougar wrote:


Mar 6, 2013 -- 11:35PM, teilhard wrote:


IOW,



You are so far off what I said, you must have a reading comprehension problem.





Everyone else here speaks English on the forum, allegedly, being an American, you do as well. So, I am forced to wonder at your ability to come up with, essentially the exact opposite of my very simple statement. Is there some inherent dishonesty involved in being a clergyman?


I still await your deigning to enter into discussion when you answer my question from the same post you failed to actually read my response.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:30PM #8068
teilhard
Posts: 53,304

What you seem to think you meant to say is obviously not what I understood to be what you intended to  write (or Words to that Effect, so to speak, as it were ...) ...


So ... Can you repeat the Question ... ???



Mar 7, 2013 -- 8:25PM, MidnightCougar wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 9:01AM, teilhard wrote:


I do agree that in these "Discussions" we very often "talk past each other" because we are NOT "speaking the same Language" ...


Mar 7, 2013 -- 12:10AM, MidnightCougar wrote:


Mar 6, 2013 -- 11:35PM, teilhard wrote:


IOW,



You are so far off what I said, you must have a reading comprehension problem.





Everyone else here speaks English on the forum, allegedly, being an American, you do as well. So, I am forced to wonder at your ability to come up with, essentially the exact opposite of my very simple statement. Is there some inherent dishonesty involved in being a clergyman?


I still await your deigning to enter into discussion when you answer my question from the same post you failed to actually read my response.





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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:41PM #8069
MidnightCougar
Posts: 832

Mar 7, 2013 -- 8:30PM, teilhard wrote:


What you seem to think you meant to say is obviously not what I understood to be what you intended to  write (or Words to that Effect, so to speak, as it were ...) ...


So ... Can you repeat the Question ... ???



Not that I expect much but, I'll repeat it dumbed down to binary choice so you can manage it.



As the experiences of others directly contradict your own, do you admit your understanding may be wrong?




If you wish to make it a discussion with additional explanation, that's fine but, answer the question first.

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2013 - 8:47PM #8070
Clardan
Posts: 1,378

Mar 7, 2013 -- 8:06PM, JCarlin wrote:


Mar 7, 2013 -- 7:00PM, Clardan wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:55PM, JCarlin wrote:

Mar 7, 2013 -- 6:49PM, Clardan wrote:

Give one example of an observation which cannot be reasonably explained except by the existence of a god/s outside the mind/s of the observer/s.


But god/s never exist outside the mind/s of the observer/s.



Neither do fairies, elves, unicorns etc etc. The real, independent, existence of faries is not a necessary explanation of the observation of fairies at the bottom of your garden.


What are you disputing with me?


You seem to be asserting that in order for a God to "exist" it must have a physical presence sitting on a golden throne somewhere that a believer can lead you to. There are believers who assert exactly that but you have to die to get there.  Personally I have no interest in dying to find out whether or not God exists in that sense. However, I have observable data that God exists as a conceptual entity with real effects on the minds of believers. 




Of course God is a concept which has real effects on the minds of believers! I already knew that, but most believers insist that God is more than a concept, particularly those who have experienced the relatively uncommon non- conceptual mystical state known as the 'the presence of God', which has the quality of revelation of the real, independent existence of God. Like other peak experiences, it has profound effects on the mind.


The point of disagreement between theists and atheists is whether or not the concept of God and mystic experience of God relate to the existence of God independently of anyone's belief or subjective experience.




"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, no matter that I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
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