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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 12:44PM #5031
christine3
Posts: 6,668

Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:59AM, wohali wrote:


Dogs wag their tails when fearful as a sign of submission, that they are no threat.


Not hypocritical.





My dog tucks her tail as a sign of submission.  She doesn't wag.  There is a nervous wag with tail pointed straight up and tip sort of vibrates.  That's "if you don't lower your head, I'm all over you."

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 8:41PM #5032
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Why dogs wag their tails:


www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/why-dogs-wag-t...


www.dog-manual.com/wagtail.html


Sarcasm in a dog would be their wagging their tails when they aren't happy to see you.


And we know that don't happen.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 9:23PM #5033
christine3
Posts: 6,668

Jun 14, 2012 -- 8:41PM, wohali wrote:


Why dogs wag their tails:


www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/why-dogs-wag-t...


www.dog-manual.com/wagtail.html


Sarcasm in a dog would be their wagging their tails when they aren't happy to see you.


And we know that don't happen.




I wasn't talking about sarcasm.  Are we having a problem?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:16AM #5034
El Cid
Posts: 1,571

Apr 23, 2012 -- 11:42AM, christine3 wrote:


Cid:  I attribute rational thought to the mind, not magic.


Christine:  But you need to research a little bit about the Mandaeans, whose teacher is John the Baptist (not St. John).  They have kept his teachings and his magic alive.  The word 'magic', 'Magi' or 'Magus' are similar meaning words.  Being a worker of 'magic' meant something entirely different than today's slight of hand, trickery.  It meant being wise in nature's laws, to work with them.  To do magic was to know sygyzy, polarity, astrology, astronomy.  It is divination.  If you want to understand much more of the secret teachings, their understanding of "their secret God", it is about having a relationship with the universe.



Astrology is meaningless. As I stated before all the writings of the Mandaens were written long after John the Baptist lived and died. The gospels were written shortly after he lived therefore are much more likely to be accurate. How do you have a relationship with an impersonal object like the universe?


 


 

 chris: They only use the word "God" now because they have been influenced over the last 2,000 years by Judaism.  But they have an entirely different understanding of the God.  They have kept their understanding alive just they way it was 2,000 years ago.  Christianity is a religion that has gotten very off the mark according to them, has lost it's way worse than Judaism.


       Cid:  I never said magic, I said the mind.


Christine:  To them, using 'magic' meant to use the mind in conjunction with the physical world.  Words change over the years so they have no resemblance to the meaning they once had as used in that language in the Bible.



No, linguists disagree, the early meanings of words can be discovered, using grammatico-historical methods. And the early meanings of biblical words are well known.


Cid:  Calming the sea, demonstrates His equality with God.


Christine:  This is a story and others are worse that were removed from the dogma so as not to bring embarrassment to the Christian religion.  For instance, it was also told of "Jesus" that as a child he made clay birds, said "Fly" and they came alive and flew away.  Another ridiculous story was that he got mad at one of his classmates in early school, striking that classmate dead with his mind alone.  These and other stories were not continued for obvious reasons.  You know how people are, they exaggerate when trying to make somebody larger than life.


       Cid:  No, he plainly teaches that he is equal with God. And also his teachings and actions plainly imply that He is God. He said that I and my father are one. He also said that he existed before Abraham. Also, John 11:27, he claims exclusive mutual knowledge between him and God, this plainly implies equality. Matt. 28:19 plainly implies His universal lordship when he says that the disciples should teach all nations His commandments. This type of authority is for God alone.


Christine:  There is a huge problem with misinterpretation and teaching wrong concepts to the masses to get them to follow.  In the Eastern religion we are one with the universe and so is everything.  Being one with the universe means to understand its laws and apply them accordingly by using the mind.  This was the basic understanding of the John the Baptist sect.



If we are one with the universe then Joseph Stalin did nothing wrong by killing all those people because he was just doing what the universe "wanted" him to do since he is part of the universe. There is no evidence that JtB was a pantheist. See above about the earliest writings about John.


 


chris:  The "father" meant the ancestors at a very high level that have not fallen, who live in the light and the true understanding and teachings.  Actually, the Mandaeans say their understanding goes back to before Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  If one doesn't understand the language as it was used then (Sitz im Leben), there can be no understanding of what is being talked about by them.  As I say, today's Christianity has gotten so far off the mark.



No, see above about the earliest writings.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:30AM #5035
El Cid
Posts: 1,571

Apr 28, 2012 -- 1:16PM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:52PM, El Cid wrote:


 


No, A is not not A whether humans are there or not.





Ah, but you're a Realist.  I suppose you regard that as a self-evident proposition, while others just take it as a metaphysical opinion.





Nevertheless, the most rational opinion.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:38AM #5036
El Cid
Posts: 1,571

May 1, 2012 -- 1:49PM, mainecaptain wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 12:45AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 27, 2012 -- 12:34AM, mainecaptain wrote:


Mar 27, 2012 -- 12:22AM, El Cid wrote:



I have real, objective, verifiable empirical evidence but not repeatable evidence. It's called the UNIVERSE.




The Universe is no more proof  of your god, then it is of mine. I could just as easily say the universe is complete proof of my gods. Prove me wrong!





It depends who your god is. Different ones are eliminated for different reasons.




No. not really.


If one god is real it is just as likely they are ALL real. You can not eliminate any of them.


For all you know you are actually worshipping the wrong god. The only way you can be sure is if you had actually personally met your god. And no, I don't mean reading the bible. I mean met. The way you meet people.





I have met Him. But yes, other gods can be eliminated. For example the greek gods can be eliminated because they are diversities and not unified, also, they are not transcendent to the universe, so they would not be able to be the cause of the universe because according to logic, a cause cannot be part of its effect. The universe is a unity within a diversity, so the greek gods are diversities that also eliminates them as the cause of the universe. The hindu god can be elimnated because it is a pure unity, its diversities are illusions, but we know the diversites of the universe are  real just like the diversity of the Trinity. Which reflects the Trinity as the cause of teh universe, so the hindu god can be eliminated as the cause of the universe. Those are just two examples.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 2:37AM #5037
Thetwofish
Posts: 568

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:38AM, El Cid wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 1:49PM, mainecaptain wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 12:45AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 27, 2012 -- 12:34AM, mainecaptain wrote:


Mar 27, 2012 -- 12:22AM, El Cid wrote:



I have real, objective, verifiable empirical evidence but not repeatable evidence. It's called the UNIVERSE.




The Universe is no more proof  of your god, then it is of mine. I could just as easily say the universe is complete proof of my gods. Prove me wrong!





It depends who your god is. Different ones are eliminated for different reasons.




No. not really.


If one god is real it is just as likely they are ALL real. You can not eliminate any of them.


For all you know you are actually worshipping the wrong god. The only way you can be sure is if you had actually personally met your god. And no, I don't mean reading the bible. I mean met. The way you meet people.





I have met Him. But yes, other gods can be eliminated. For example the greek gods can be eliminated because they are diversities and not unified, also, they are not transcendent to the universe, so they would not be able to be the cause of the universe because according to logic, a cause cannot be part of its effect. The universe is a unity within a diversity, so the greek gods are diversities that also eliminates them as the cause of the universe. The hindu god can be elimnated because it is a pure unity, its diversities are illusions, but we know the diversites of the universe are  real just like the diversity of the Trinity. Which reflects the Trinity as the cause of teh universe, so the hindu god can be eliminated as the cause of the universe. Those are just two examples.




Whaaaaaaaaaa...Undecided


That is the biggest bunch of words put together meaning absolutely nothing that I have ever witnessed.  What a waste of my time reading it.


Peace


<'{{><

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 7:14AM #5038
christine3
Posts: 6,668


Cid:  Astrology is meaningless. As I stated before all the writings of the Mandaens were written long after John the Baptist lived and died. The gospels were written shortly after he lived therefore are much more likely to be accurate. How do you have a relationship with an impersonal object like the universe?


 >>>Good Grief, your assumptions are categorically incorrect.  Do you think these people just appeared and started writing some time during 2nd century?  They and their teachings have existed in the oral tradition AND in writing for at least 4-6 thousand years, and that is a conservative number.  What you are referring to is a select group of writings in the Gnostic literature that can be dated because of WHEN it was written.  Also, astrological configurations such that we know them in our immediate solar system have everything to do with it.  We are in the universe and the universe is in us.  You don't know anything about that, so how can you talk about it?  Your lack of understanding is a perfect example of steering off into the wrong direction because the road signs were changed.  I don't mean to be harsh but that's what you are up against here.  If you were familiar with the literature on the Mandaean understanding, we could have a conversation.


Cid:  There is no evidence that JtB was a pantheist.  See above about the earliest writings about John.


>>>The Mandaeans follow John the Baptist, not Jesus.  The Mandaeans have a Pantheist view of the universe and do not believe in an anthropomorphized God.  That is the evidence.  The earliest writings about John the Baptist are the "Christianized" version.  Mandaeanism was a direct threat to Christianity during 2nd century.  Is it any wonder John was diminished?  What they wrote about him was that he was a madman out in the desert, and that he was dwarfed by Jesus.  It is not true history.   


Cid:  If we are one with the universe then Joseph Stalin did nothing wrong by killing all those people because he was just doing what the universe "wanted" him to do since he is part of the universe. 


>>>Everybody kills on this planet, not just Communists.  According to you, Jesus and God are going to kill close to everybody on the planet in the End Times.  Please address that.  A horse of a different color?  Being one with the universe means nothing except what you believe it to mean.  As I said before, "the universe is good in you" can be traced to a particular Native American tribe.  How far back does this greeting go?  It cannot be dated.  It didn't just originate when it was written on a piece of paper.  According to your version, the tribe originated when the saying was written down.    


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:51AM #5039
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Christine, you must be using the imperial "we".


I got no problem.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:23PM #5040
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,776

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:38AM, El Cid wrote:




I have met Him. But yes, other gods can be eliminated. For example the greek gods can be eliminated because they are diversities and not unified, also, they are not transcendent to the universe, so they would not be able to be the cause of the universe because according to logic, a cause cannot be part of its effect. The universe is a unity within a diversity, so the greek gods are diversities that also eliminates them as the cause of the universe. The hindu god can be elimnated because it is a pure unity, its diversities are illusions, but we know the diversites of the universe are  real just like the diversity of the Trinity. Which reflects the Trinity as the cause of teh universe, so the hindu god can be eliminated as the cause of the universe. Those are just two examples.




You have no way of knowing whether the Greek gods are transcendent or not. In fact the only thing you know about other gods is what you have read. That is not knowledge. And your personal hope that they are not real.


Hindu gods, Greek gods, All gods are gods in every sense. The bible god is just a middle eastern tribal god, not more important or powerful or special then any other god. No more transcendent than any other god. All gods are gods. That particular middle eastern tribal god is no more important than any other god


Oh and if you have met your god, perhaps you could give us a glimpse as to how that occurred. I would be sincerely interested. I would also like your definition of met.


So NO you can not eliminate any other gods. They are all equally real and out there or they are all, including yours, non existent.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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