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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 6:19PM #4991
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 11, 2012 -- 6:06PM, chevy956 wrote:


El Cid said: "True jews have always believed that. Remember as God has said in his Word, a true hebrew is of the heart not tradition and heritage."


>>>>Exactly wrong. Only Jews get to decide who is a Jew, not Christians and certainly not the writer of a Christian religious text. It isn't "God's Word', just nonsense written by humans.



Right. Christians aren't Jews. I don't even consider the New Testament part of the Bible. It's just a few pages stapled on to the end.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 6:29PM #4992
JCarlin
Posts: 6,797

Jun 11, 2012 -- 4:03PM, Ken wrote:

Jun 11, 2012 -- 3:44PM, wohali wrote:

El Cid, I notice that you constantly ask for evidence but you never provide any.


What up with that?


It's what he does whenever somebody has just creamed him and he can't think of a comeback. His own idea of evidence is a vague nod in the direction of David Barton.


El Cid is not the only one.  It seems to be a chapter in the ARLCo handbook.  Whenever you are confronted with an irrefutable argument ask for evidence.  Then when the evidence is provided don't read the post.  For advanced students and clergy you can even sarcastically suggest types of evidence.  

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 7:24PM #4993
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Ken, I was just pointing out the obvious...........

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 12:41AM #4994
El Cid
Posts: 1,783

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:08AM, christine3 wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 12:26AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, christine3 wrote:


People should cease all belief in what gods want.  Simply notice when fellow beings are in pain.  That alone tells what is not right conduct.





Why is pain bad? And how do you know these things?




I was talking about causing harm and pain to others.  But some pain is good, like the kind of pain that teaches not to put hand in fire.  Or mental pain that happens when we do wrong.  Guilt is an indicator for wrong conduct.  Extreme and prolonged guilt is counter effective.





Where does right and wrong come from? And do they really exist? Why do we feel guilty when we do something wrong? So you do believe that some things are right and some things are wrong? If there is no God, how can such things exist? If everything is natural and there is nothing supernatural, then there is no such thing as something being wrong, our behavior just IS. There are no oughts.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 6:12AM #4995
JCarlin
Posts: 6,797

Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:41AM, El Cid wrote:


Where does right and wrong come from? And do they really exist?


Right and wrong exist and are determined by the society we choose to live in.  We learn right and wrong beginning shortly after birth from our mother with our other parent and siblings joining in when we become mobile.  Other children and outside caregivers join the party when we do, and learning continues most of our lives although the teaching of right and wrong is most intense in the adolescent years when peer groups, gangs and cliques are very active in determining our moral values. 


All this is true whether there is a God or gods in the picture or not.  The advantage of having a God in the picture is the moral values learned are rigid and time tested.  The disadvantage is that they are very conservative and can be manipulated by the various mediators for God that we are exposed to.  If our parents choose good mediators for God, God's morality generally works out OK.  If not prejudice, bigotry, tribalism and stupidity can frequently and easily be part of our God given values of right and wrong. 


For people without God the society chosen is even more important, as the ideas of right and wrong are based less on tradition, and reflect current social values whether good or poor.  Again, parents and our choice of schools, especially in our teens can be critical.  But even without God by full adulthood science says this occurs in early 20s for women and mid 20's for men, ideas of right and wrong are internalized in the conscience and change very slowly if at all. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:10AM #4996
christine3
Posts: 7,370

ec:  Where does right and wrong come from? And do they really exist?


>>>I first learned from my mother and father, then I learned from my culture (which of course included religion), then I went on my own.  It didn't completely turn out like my parents or culture.  Of course they really exist.


Why do we feel guilty when we do something wrong?


>>>Conscience.


So you do believe that some things are right and some things are wrong?


>>>Of course.  I'd have to be dead not to.


If there is no God, how can such things exist?


>>>Education.  Anything with a brain can learn or be conditioned to react in a certain way.  (Even a branch can be trained.)  The difference is, some people are just having knee-jerk reaction without thinking, they are parroting without really thinking about it.  Others have thought about it enough to really know what is right and wrong without having a god or others to constantly remind them.


If everything is natural and there is nothing supernatural, then there is no such thing as something being wrong, our behavior just IS. There are no oughts.


>>>Supernatural means above, beyond natural.  If you want to take Jesus as an example, he had a moral compass that existed among learned men in his time, but by and large was ahead of his time.  As a world, it was ahead of our time.  i.e. "love one another".  Yet everything he taught was natural, already known.  There were some mental modalities he and others accomplished that were completely natural.  Jesus was not the only person who taught these things.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 10:38AM #4997
mountain_man
Posts: 39,707

Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:41AM, El Cid wrote:

Where does right and wrong come from?


From us, from evolution.


And do they really exist?


As a concept, not as a real entity.


Why do we feel guilty when we do something wrong?


Evolution has provided us with a brain that enables us to use empathy and caring for others as a way to figure out right from wrong.


So you do believe that some things are right and some things are wrong?


What is right or wrong depends on the society and many other factors.


If there is no God, how can such things exist?


Since gods do not exist, and "right and wrong" do exist, the only source would be us.


If everything is natural and there is nothing supernatural, then there is no such thing as something being wrong, our behavior just IS. There are no oughts.


That would be your biased belief that has no connection with reality.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 11:40AM #4998
JCarlin
Posts: 6,797

Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:41AM, El Cid wrote:


Where does right and wrong come from? And do they really exist? Why do we feel guilty when we do something wrong? So you do believe that some things are right and some things are wrong? If there is no God, how can such things exist? If everything is natural and there is nothing supernatural, then there is no such thing as something being wrong, our behavior just IS. There are no oughts.


Please note, El Cid, when you get back to this post someday that all of your questions have been answered.  You do not need to ask them again.

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 12:18PM #4999
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 12, 2012 -- 11:40AM, JCarlin wrote:


Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:41AM, El Cid wrote:


Where does right and wrong come from? And do they really exist? Why do we feel guilty when we do something wrong? So you do believe that some things are right and some things are wrong? If there is no God, how can such things exist? If everything is natural and there is nothing supernatural, then there is no such thing as something being wrong, our behavior just IS. There are no oughts.


Please note, El Cid, when you get back to this post someday that all of your questions have been answered.  You do not need to ask them again.



True. This thread is a model of inefficiency. Ask a question once. Repeat it only if you don't get an answer. If you do get an answer, consider the answer and move on to raising any objections you may have to it. The objections will then be addressed, and so on. There should be no occasion to repeat the original question. A good debate moves forward. It doesn't go around in circles.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 2:49PM #5000
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 12, 2012 -- 2:41PM, Aka_me wrote:

rape and necrophilia are acceptable with penguins, so if their brain doesn't feel any guilt then human brains shouldn't feel any guilt either.



Apparently Aka_me hasn't noticed that human beings aren't penguins.

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