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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
8 years ago  ::  Jul 27, 2010 - 1:39AM #31
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

The law of causality is an observation not a basic fact of nature or even of logic.  It is useful to determine a series of observations that can explain a particular effect and in shorthand we can say that the observations were the cause of the effect.  But one must always be careful to be aware of the post hoc propter hoc fallacy.  Just because something happens after another commonly does not necessarily mean that the first thing causes the next.  It is almost an axiom of science that without strong proof of causality the first assumption must be that there is no causality.  In short the "law of causality" can prove nothing by itself.   


Jul 27, 2010 -- 12:42AM, El Cid wrote:

The law of causality is a basic law of logic used everyday in science and first articulated by Aristotle though used from the beginning of humanity. Scientists study effects and their characteristics to determine their causes.




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8 years ago  ::  Jul 27, 2010 - 9:26AM #32
Ken
Posts: 33,858

Jul 27, 2010 -- 12:42AM, El Cid wrote:



The law of causality is a basic law of logic used everyday in science and first articulated by Aristotle though used from the beginning of humanity. Scientists study effects and their characteristics to determine their causes.



JCarlin has addressed this.


All the characteristics of the universe points to it being an effect,  therefore according to logic, it must have a cause.


False. According to the law of the conservation of mass-energy, mass-energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Mass can change into energy, energy can change into mass, and mass-energy can assume various configurations, but mass-energy itself is imperishable and uncaused. It never comes into being; it never ceases to be. Therefore, all cause and effect occur within mass-energy. To say that X caused Y is to say that some portion of mass-energy produced a change in some other portion of mass-energy.


And since the  universe is everything physical, according to the law of causality, a  cause cannot be part of the effect, therefore the Cause must be  non-physical.


Since the universe is everything physical, and everything physical is mass-energy, the universe cannot be caused. The universe is the very context within which cause and effect occur. Take away the context and you're left with nothing. 

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2010 - 12:12AM #33
El Cid
Posts: 2,553

Jul 25, 2010 -- 7:40AM, natureboy_the0 wrote:


Jul 25, 2010 -- 12:40AM, El Cid wrote:

Jul 24, 2010 -- 5:33AM, natureboy_the0 wrote:


El Cid,


CAN EXISTENCE BE EXPLAINED?


by Elijah Alrfed "The NatureBoy" Alexandr, Junior


 


Man usually say creation when talking about the zeroverse—universe—requiring a maker to achieve, if we call it existence we are saying “it always was, is, and shall be” eliminating the need of a maker.  So, how does one explain existence or is it comprehensible? 


Existence is a group of individual entities which, without ever ceasing, continues through a process of learning and unlearning the whole of itself in every minute detail, by various processes.  The following explains how.


The zeroverse is a sphere with a center ball like the middle of an onion and layered upon layer until reaching the outer skin.  The center ball and layers are like a honeycomb with unnumberable cells, each representing an entity, genders (where required), personality and characteristic of it, on the center ball.  On zeroversal layers the cells represent required learning experiences. 


On the center ball—earth being one—the energy, ghost or lifeforce—mind included—migrates through each cell of every entity type thereon by means of reincarnating.  The host cell embeds the knowledge required to be comprehended into the ghost while reincarnation provides a barrier preventing the knowledge retained in one cell from being remembered when in another until incarnating for evolving to the next layer or plane.  That is done because earth is a plane of duality and all life interacts with many other lifes causing what is called karma or the reaping and sowing effect causing each ghost to experience ever act and emotion they caused to all other beings, and with the memory they could not experience them. 


What happens in the cell where the being—not only a ghost now—evolves to the next plane is the metamorphosis, like the caterpillar becoming a butterfly.  The caterpillar weaves a cocoon and, with the cocoon included, is transformed into the butterfly, thus, the broken down barriers preventing memories of the different cells from being carried into another also becomes the body of the metamorphosed being, on earth are man [mind able to comprehend all things]. 


Because the barriers were transparent to the man eventually become transparent to any other man but with the ability to vibrate at a frequency to allow man to see them as what is termed holy ghost—a man able to function as a man or ghost—and angel.  Those man will also remember the languages of every entity type it has evolved through thus, being able to communicate in any language as if schooled in it, speaking in tongues of Christianity. 


On each subsequence plane, except as the outer skin, the metamorphosis is how man migrates through the cells thereon, all memories are carried into the next cell.  In this way the entity learn every minute detail of existence, but when entity gets to the outer skin the body breaks down to cause the memory to be forgotten. 


On the outer skin, however, one being is required to become the ghost of all existence when the zeroverse, like the Phoenix, dissolves into only ethers and out of those ashes is made to rises again by a different ghost.  Therefore, there is a sequence, I call timelines, every ghost follows and are numbered so no ghost will bring existence into being prior to every ghost having done it. 


Thus, I have used the things made to reveal the functioning of existence.  Accept it if you will, rejected it as you may, this is my message to you for you to do with it as you will. 


Can you explain your existence of god in this way? 




Interesting theory, but you have not presented any evidence for it. And I don't think there is any evidence for it.


The symbols used to explain it is the evidence, more evidence than the explanation given for the belief in god from any source. 





How can the symbols be evidence? By evidence I am referring to things like philosophy, history, and science. Christianity is backed up by all three of these types of evidence. Now if you had actual scientific evidence that memory is transferred to all the cells then that would be evidence supporting your ideas.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2010 - 12:34AM #34
El Cid
Posts: 2,553

Jul 27, 2010 -- 1:39AM, Jcarlinbn wrote:


jb: The law of causality is an observation not a basic fact of nature or even of logic. 



Evidence that it is not a law of logic? Most philosophers throughout history beginning with Aristotle have considered it a basic law of logic. Until you can provide evidence that says otherwise, I think I will stick with the philosophers. 


jb: It is useful to determine a series of observations that can explain a particular effect and in shorthand we can say that the observations were the cause of the effect.  But one must always be careful to be aware of the post hoc propter hoc fallacy.  Just because something happens after another commonly does not necessarily mean that the first thing causes the next.  It is almost an axiom of science that without strong proof of causality the first assumption must be that there is no causality.  In short the "law of causality" can prove nothing by itself.   





Of course, order of occurence is only a very minor consideration that helps determine the cause of something. Scientists depend much more on the essential characteristics of the effect to determine the cause. Actually it is an axiom of science to always assume that EVERY effect needs a cause, otherwise science becomes almost impossible if things can occur without a cause, ie zebras popping into existence for no cause or reason. Most scientists assume there is a cause even if they have not discovered what it is yet. Only very reluctantly have scientists recently conceded that quantum events MAY not need a cause.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2010 - 8:37AM #35
natureboy_the0
Posts: 1,742

Jul 28, 2010 -- 12:12AM, El Cid wrote:


Jul 25, 2010 -- 7:40AM, natureboy_the0 wrote:


Jul 25, 2010 -- 12:40AM, El Cid wrote:

Jul 24, 2010 -- 5:33AM, natureboy_the0 wrote:


El Cid,


CAN EXISTENCE BE EXPLAINED?


by Elijah Alrfed "The NatureBoy" Alexandr, Junior


 


Man usually say creation when talking about the zeroverse—universe—requiring a maker to achieve, if we call it existence we are saying “it always was, is, and shall be” eliminating the need of a maker.  So, how does one explain existence or is it comprehensible? 


Existence is a group of individual entities which, without ever ceasing, continues through a process of learning and unlearning the whole of itself in every minute detail, by various processes.  The following explains how.


The zeroverse is a sphere with a center ball like the middle of an onion and layered upon layer until reaching the outer skin.  The center ball and layers are like a honeycomb with unnumberable cells, each representing an entity, genders (where required), personality and characteristic of it, on the center ball.  On zeroversal layers the cells represent required learning experiences. 


On the center ball—earth being one—the energy, ghost or lifeforce—mind included—migrates through each cell of every entity type thereon by means of reincarnating.  The host cell embeds the knowledge required to be comprehended into the ghost while reincarnation provides a barrier preventing the knowledge retained in one cell from being remembered when in another until incarnating for evolving to the next layer or plane.  That is done because earth is a plane of duality and all life interacts with many other lifes causing what is called karma or the reaping and sowing effect causing each ghost to experience ever act and emotion they caused to all other beings, and with the memory they could not experience them. 


What happens in the cell where the being—not only a ghost now—evolves to the next plane is the metamorphosis, like the caterpillar becoming a butterfly.  The caterpillar weaves a cocoon and, with the cocoon included, is transformed into the butterfly, thus, the broken down barriers preventing memories of the different cells from being carried into another also becomes the body of the metamorphosed being, on earth are man [mind able to comprehend all things]. 


Because the barriers were transparent to the man eventually become transparent to any other man but with the ability to vibrate at a frequency to allow man to see them as what is termed holy ghost—a man able to function as a man or ghost—and angel.  Those man will also remember the languages of every entity type it has evolved through thus, being able to communicate in any language as if schooled in it, speaking in tongues of Christianity. 


On each subsequence plane, except as the outer skin, the metamorphosis is how man migrates through the cells thereon, all memories are carried into the next cell.  In this way the entity learn every minute detail of existence, but when entity gets to the outer skin the body breaks down to cause the memory to be forgotten. 


On the outer skin, however, one being is required to become the ghost of all existence when the zeroverse, like the Phoenix, dissolves into only ethers and out of those ashes is made to rises again by a different ghost.  Therefore, there is a sequence, I call timelines, every ghost follows and are numbered so no ghost will bring existence into being prior to every ghost having done it. 


Thus, I have used the things made to reveal the functioning of existence.  Accept it if you will, rejected it as you may, this is my message to you for you to do with it as you will. 


Can you explain your existence of god in this way? 




Interesting theory, but you have not presented any evidence for it. And I don't think there is any evidence for it.


The symbols used to explain it is the evidence, more evidence than the explanation given for the belief in god from any source.




How can the symbols be evidence? By evidence I am referring to things like philosophy, history, and science. Christianity is backed up by all three of these types of evidence. Now if you had actual scientific evidence that memory is transferred to all the cells then that would be evidence supporting your ideas.


  Symbols are evidence, they're the only things we have to to reveal anything unseen or unseeable from our locality. 


If someone presented me something as tangible about god'd existence I could grasp and accept god's existence, other than the ghost [lifeforce] of every being an indicated in my observations.  Since I have not had that much presented to me, I can't accept a concept without any symbols to represent it. 

Are you questioning your beliefs, ask I AM THAT I AM to clarify them!
Elijah Alfred "NatureBoy" Alexander, Jr. presenting SEEDS OF LIFE
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 12:20AM #36
El Cid
Posts: 2,553

Jul 27, 2010 -- 9:26AM, Ken wrote:


Jul 27, 2010 -- 12:42AM, El Cid wrote:



ec: The law of causality is a basic law of logic used everyday in science and first articulated by Aristotle though used from the beginning of humanity. Scientists study effects and their characteristics to determine their causes.


ken: JCarlin has addressed this.



Not very well, see my response to him.


ec: All the characteristics of the universe points to it being an effect, therefore according to logic, it must have a cause.


ken: False. According to the law of the conservation of mass-energy, mass-energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Mass can change into energy, energy can change into mass, and mass-energy can assume various configurations, but mass-energy itself is imperishable and uncaused. It never comes into being; it never ceases to be. Therefore, all cause and effect occur within mass-energy. To say that X caused Y is to say that some portion of mass-energy produced a change in some other portion of mass-energy.



No, that law only applies within the universe. There is no evidence that that law applies at time = 0. IOW before the universe exists. 


ec: And since the universe is everything physical, according to the law of causality, a cause cannot be part of the effect, therefore the Cause must be non-physical.


ken: Since the universe is everything physical, and everything physical is mass-energy, the universe cannot be caused. The universe is the very context within which cause and effect occur. Take away the context and you're left with nothing. 





No, laws of logic are metaphysical laws not the laws of physics. For example, the law of non-contradiction applies whether a universe exists or not.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 12:29AM #37
El Cid
Posts: 2,553

Jul 25, 2010 -- 12:40AM, El Cid wrote:

Jul 24, 2010 -- 5:33AM, natureboy_the0 wrote:


El Cid,


CAN EXISTENCE BE EXPLAINED?


by Elijah Alrfed "The NatureBoy" Alexandr, Junior


 


Man usually say creation when talking about the zeroverse—universe—requiring a maker to achieve, if we call it existence we are saying “it always was, is, and shall be” eliminating the need of a maker.  So, how does one explain existence or is it comprehensible? 


Existence is a group of individual entities which, without ever ceasing, continues through a process of learning and unlearning the whole of itself in every minute detail, by various processes.  The following explains how.


The zeroverse is a sphere with a center ball like the middle of an onion and layered upon layer until reaching the outer skin.  The center ball and layers are like a honeycomb with unnumberable cells, each representing an entity, genders (where required), personality and characteristic of it, on the center ball.  On zeroversal layers the cells represent required learning experiences. 


On the center ball—earth being one—the energy, ghost or lifeforce—mind included—migrates through each cell of every entity type thereon by means of reincarnating.  The host cell embeds the knowledge required to be comprehended into the ghost while reincarnation provides a barrier preventing the knowledge retained in one cell from being remembered when in another until incarnating for evolving to the next layer or plane.  That is done because earth is a plane of duality and all life interacts with many other lifes causing what is called karma or the reaping and sowing effect causing each ghost to experience ever act and emotion they caused to all other beings, and with the memory they could not experience them. 


What happens in the cell where the being—not only a ghost now—evolves to the next plane is the metamorphosis, like the caterpillar becoming a butterfly.  The caterpillar weaves a cocoon and, with the cocoon included, is transformed into the butterfly, thus, the broken down barriers preventing memories of the different cells from being carried into another also becomes the body of the metamorphosed being, on earth are man [mind able to comprehend all things]. 


Because the barriers were transparent to the man eventually become transparent to any other man but with the ability to vibrate at a frequency to allow man to see them as what is termed holy ghost—a man able to function as a man or ghost—and angel.  Those man will also remember the languages of every entity type it has evolved through thus, being able to communicate in any language as if schooled in it, speaking in tongues of Christianity. 


On each subsequence plane, except as the outer skin, the metamorphosis is how man migrates through the cells thereon, all memories are carried into the next cell.  In this way the entity learn every minute detail of existence, but when entity gets to the outer skin the body breaks down to cause the memory to be forgotten. 


On the outer skin, however, one being is required to become the ghost of all existence when the zeroverse, like the Phoenix, dissolves into only ethers and out of those ashes is made to rises again by a different ghost.  Therefore, there is a sequence, I call timelines, every ghost follows and are numbered so no ghost will bring existence into being prior to every ghost having done it. 


Thus, I have used the things made to reveal the functioning of existence.  Accept it if you will, rejected it as you may, this is my message to you for you to do with it as you will. 


Can you explain your existence of god in this way? 




Interesting theory, but you have not presented any evidence for it. And I don't think there is any evidence for it.


The symbols used to explain it is the evidence, more evidence than the explanation given for the belief in god from any source.




ec: How can the symbols be evidence? By evidence I am referring to things like philosophy, history, and science. Christianity is backed up by all three of these types of evidence. Now if you had actual scientific evidence that memory is transferred to all the cells then that would be evidence supporting your ideas.


nb: Symbols are evidence, they're the only things we have to to reveal anything unseen or unseeable from our locality. 


If someone presented me something as tangible about god'd existence I could grasp and accept god's existence, other than the ghost [lifeforce] of every being an indicated in my observations.  Since I have not had that much presented to me, I can't accept a concept without any symbols to represent it. 





Symbols are not evidence, it is what they represent that is evidence. How about the universe? It is pretty tangible. The existence of the universe is strong evidence for the existence of God, see my posts above about the law of causality.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 6:48AM #38
natureboy_the0
Posts: 1,742

El Cid~~~Symbols are not evidence, it is what they represent that is evidence. How about the universe? It is pretty tangible. The existence of the universe is strong evidence for the existence of God, see my posts above about the law of causality.


Elijah~~~That is what "Can Existence Be Explained" is showing, how the zeroverse (universe) opperates by using the symbols made in it to reveal it.  If god existed it would have some form of symbols to reveal it, the universe is no such symbol for it has growing within itself symbols to reveal its existence. 

Are you questioning your beliefs, ask I AM THAT I AM to clarify them!
Elijah Alfred "NatureBoy" Alexander, Jr. presenting SEEDS OF LIFE
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 9:51AM #39
Ken
Posts: 33,858

Jul 30, 2010 -- 12:20AM, El Cid wrote:


According to the law of the conservation of mass-energy, mass-energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Mass can change into energy, energy can change into mass, and mass-energy can assume various configurations, but mass-energy itself is imperishable and uncaused. It never comes into being; it never ceases to be. Therefore, all cause and effect occur within mass-energy. To say that X caused Y is to say that some portion of mass-energy produced a change in some other portion of mass-energy.


No, that law only applies within the universe. There is no evidence that that law applies at time = 0. IOW before the universe exists.


And the universe is everything that exists. There is no "before" the universe or "outside" the universe. Perhaps you're confusing the universe with the observable universe.


Since the universe is everything physical, and everything physical is mass-energy, the universe cannot be caused. The universe is the very context within which cause and effect occur. Take away the context and you're left with nothing. 


No, laws of logic are metaphysical laws not the laws of physics. For example, the law of non-contradiction applies whether a universe exists or not.



Not at all. Obviously, if nothing existed, no laws would apply. Everything without exception is contingent upon existence.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 30, 2010 - 9:57PM #40
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

You can stick with whoever you want to, it ain't philosophers by the way, more likely apologists. Philosophy doesn't have laws, and in particular in philosophy, a law used as argument is a joke.  There are useful philosophical ideas that are commonly used in arguments and accepted by most, if used in the proper context.  Causality is one of those, and in many areas causality is a useful investigating tool.  Not not argument, investigating tool.   


Jul 28, 2010 -- 12:34AM, El Cid wrote:

Evidence that it is not a law of logic? Most philosophers throughout history beginning with Aristotle have considered it a basic law of logic. Until you can provide evidence that says otherwise, I think I will stick with the philosophers. 




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