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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 9:00PM #5101
mountain_man
Posts: 38,061

Jun 17, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Aka_me wrote:

I didn't say anything about "more real" or "less real".


Good, because there is no such thing. Something is real or it is not. Gods are not real.


the question which still remains unanswered is qualifies a being as a god?


Anything you want. They're all made up so make up any kind of god you want.


...so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.


Oh, that's easy; humans are real gods are not. It can't get any easier than that.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 10:36PM #5102
Aka_me
Posts: 11,307

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:02PM, christine3 wrote:

Science is good for some things, not for others;



examples of what it's not good for would include what?

buzz buzz... that dizzy fly is wrong to even think he can be an annoying.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 10:47PM #5103
Aka_me
Posts: 11,307

Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:13PM, mainecaptain wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Aka_me wrote:

so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.



This is the wrong board for that. I have no idea what you mean by separated from the gods. Not everyone is. Sad that you feel you are.



the thread is titled The 'existence' of gods.


qualification for godhood is related... in that we need not worry about all the beings who can't qualify as a god.


Athena as a goddess, can't even pull off the levitation and parlor tricks that Criss Angel does, begging the question of what it takes to be a god.


Charlie Sheen claims to be dating a pair of godesses... apparently he has more idea of what it takes to qualify as a god than has been posted here so far.

buzz buzz... that dizzy fly is wrong to even think he can be an annoying.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 11:56PM #5104
JCarlin
Posts: 5,987

Jun 17, 2012 -- 8:56PM, mountain_man wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:02PM, christine3 wrote:

Science is good for some things, not for others...


It is good for finding the truth. Science has found there to be no truth at all to any of the stuff you mentioned.


Science neither has disproved nor has an opinion on a wide range of topics that scientists don't now and may never have the tools to study.  Science may have proved that the stars and planets have no effects on humans, but it can say nothing at all about how humans use the stars and planets except possibly for navigation. But surely something as important as navigation may have by products in behavior that science is unequipped to study.


 




J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:04AM #5105
mountain_man
Posts: 38,061

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:47PM, Aka_me wrote:

the thread is titled The 'existence' of gods.


That's true, and not one believer has offered a reasonable definition of what a god is or should be. Not one. So, until some believer proves a god that fits their definition exists there is no reason to assume that gods are nothing but complete fantasies.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:18AM #5106
JCarlin
Posts: 5,987

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:47PM, Aka_me wrote:

Athena as a goddess, can't even pull off the levitation and parlor tricks that Criss Angel does, begging the question of what it takes to be a god.


Parlor tricks are not necessary for godhood, although frequently they are used to build credibility in a god, see eg. Jesus.  All that is necessary for godhood is for some human to make up a super alpha preferably that can be sold to others to make a religion.  But some monk in some hermitage could make up a god and try to sell it or at least convince others of its existence.  Whether or not the sale is successful the god is a god. 


Another good definition of a god is something an atheist does not believe in. 

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:43AM #5107
El Cid
Posts: 1,405

May 6, 2012 -- 9:04AM, Ken wrote:


May 6, 2012 -- 12:54AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 28, 2012 -- 12:50AM, MUH wrote:

What is "free-will"?



ec: The ability to choose what you want.


ken: No, it's the ability to do what you want. We always speak of free will in connection with actions. "I did such-and-such of my own free will."



That too, but it also includes choices.


May 6, 2012 -- 12:54AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 28, 2012 -- 12:50AM, MUH wrote:

How does one "freely choose" to love something he/she isn't even sure exists? 


ec: You make the decision on a faith based on evidence and then once you open yourself up to Him, He confirms His existence.


ken: That's absurd. By definition, faith is belief that is not based on evidence.



That is not the biblical definition of faith, why do you think Christ performed miracles? He was providing evidence of who he was. Also, he and his disciples used arguments to persuade people into faith.  So contrary to popular opinion even among some Christians, the bible does not endorse an irrational leap of faith.


ken: To suggest that one has to believe in God before he will confirm his existence is worse than absurd. It is an insult to human reason.



Nevertheless, that is what He often does. I am not saying that is how He always does it. Sometimes He confirms His existence first.


ken: Why should it make sense for God to "want" anything?  And, why would God not want robots? 


ec: Because He is a personal being and personal beings have wants.


ken: You are forgetting that God is a perfect personal being. To want something is to lack it, and perfection lacks nothing. A perfect God cannot want. Every time you say "God wants" you are denying the perfection of God. That's blasphemy.





No, not wants for himself, wants for others especially His children, ie humans. He wants good things for them including free will.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:57AM #5108
mountain_man
Posts: 38,061

Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43AM, El Cid wrote:

....No, not wants for himself, wants for others especially His children, ie humans.


Oh, is that why this god thing of your's gave us flies?


Here's an excerpt from what Mark Twain had to say about flies:


"If we can imagine such a man, that is the man that could invent the fly, and send him out on his mission and furnish him his orders: “Depart into the uttermost corners of the earth, and diligently do your appointed work. Persecute the sick child; settle upon its eyes, its face, its hands, and gnaw and pester and sting; worry and fret and madden the worn and tired mother who watches by the child, and who humbly prays for mercy and relief with the pathetic faith of the deceived and the unteachable. Settle upon the soldier’s festering wounds in field and hospital and drive him frantic while he also prays, and betweentimes curses, with none to listen but you, Fly, who get all the petting and all the protection, without even praying for it. Harry and persecute the forlorn and forsaken wretch who is perishing of the plague, and in his terror and despair praying; bite, sting, feed upon his ulcers, dabble your feet in his rotten blood, gum them thick with plague-germs - feet cunningly designed and perfected for this function ages ago in the beginning - carry this freight to a hundred tables, among the just and the unjust. the high and the low, and walk over the food and gaum it with filth and death. Visit all; allow no man peace till he get it in the grave; visit and afflict the hard-worked and unoffending horse, mule, ox, ass, pester the patient cow, and all the kindly animals that labor without fair reward here and perish without hope of it hereafter; spare no creature, wild or tame; but wheresoever you find one, make his life a misery, treat him as the innocent deserve; and so please Me and increase My glory Who made the fly."


And this god thing wants good for us so it created flies, childhood cancer, and all kinds of ugly, nasty, ways to die.


To hell with your god. It's not worthy of my worship.


He wants good things for them including free will.


I've already explained to you that a god that knows everything cannot have free will itself. And, you cannot have free will either. You could not do anything other than what this god think already knows.


It seems that every time you try to claim your god exists you also prove that it cannot exist as you claim it does.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:03AM #5109
christine3
Posts: 6,042

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:36PM, Aka_me wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:02PM, christine3 wrote:

Science is good for some things, not for others;



examples of what it's not good for would include what?




There are many areas it hasn't begun to fathom, is not interested in, already has made it's mind up that these things don't exist.  In my own frame of reference, science cannot claim knowledge of how to cure many diseases...calls them incurable...but that is not true.  It just doesn't have the 'tools'.  It can't see into past lifetimes.  It can't remove 'spirits' from people that make them sick.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:15AM #5110
christine3
Posts: 6,042

Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:56PM, JCarlin wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 8:56PM, mountain_man wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:02PM, christine3 wrote:

Science is good for some things, not for others...


It is good for finding the truth. Science has found there to be no truth at all to any of the stuff you mentioned.


Science neither has disproved nor has an opinion on a wide range of topics that scientists don't now and may never have the tools to study.  Science may have proved that the stars and planets have no effects on humans, but it can say nothing at all about how humans use the stars and planets except possibly for navigation. But surely something as important as navigation may have by products in behavior that science is unequipped to study.




Right, science only thinks that stars and planets have no effects on humans.  Part of the problem is that it sees itself as opposed to unexplained phenomena like humans' ability to self heal or heal others, and science is also interested in profit, so it only puts its efforts into profit.  It has taken part in producing numerous medicines that do not cure, only abate or mask at best, have dangerous side-effects at worst.

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