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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 4:50PM #5091
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 17, 2012 -- 4:37PM, chevy956 wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:14PM, Ken wrote:


I don't know why Aka_me wants to discuss theology here.




I don't know why he keeps confusing action figures with gods. I wonder if there is a DSM number for that.....



Oh, that's just the usual Abrahamic anti-polytheism.


If my religion descended from people who were too poor to afford more than one god and too unskilled to make a proper statue of him, I wouldn't brag about it.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 4:53PM #5092
chevy956
Posts: 1,960

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:23AM, christine3 wrote:

Chevy: Thanks for the link regarding OT divination.


Christine:  You're welcome. I didn't read all of it, but you asked for an accredited scholar.  She seemed to fit the bill.


Chevy:  However, I was addressing Christian usage and views of divination, not Jewish usage, and they saw it as pagan practice.


Christine:  Have you read the Gospel of Thomas? 113 sayings of Jesus? I am clear that it is a Christian document which addresses exorcism and healing.  A person wouldn't recognize it unless they knew either the pendulum or hand divination in the first place.  To try to explain it to you would be futile unless you had some experience.


Chevy: Although I'm not acting as a Christian apologist, but as a former cradle Catholic who actually took the time to study about our traditions, I can tell you that you are simply making a lot of statements with no evidence.


Christine:  There's your evidence.


Chevy:  Claims with no evidence get dismissed with no evidence. Christianity from very early times viewed divination as a pagan evil and as stated, passed canon laws forbidding it.


Christine: Tell me why instead of teaching divination, the New Testament borrowed from the Gospel of Thomas but kept it hidden?  


Chevy: Censors are used at High Mass and for Benediction service as a means of purification, not divination.


Christine: The loss of knowledge about the pendulum was bad enough, yet the remaining information about spirits possessing a body was what caused the descent into the Dark Ages.  The church considered people who would not believe as they did, to be OBSESSED and POSSESSED.  Before that catastrophy, when people knew what a pendulum was for, it was used to find out how many spirits were attached to a body, and after that they were removed.  Too many attachments in and around a body made people mentally and physically sick.  Jesus taught singularity...it originally meant there should be only one soul to one body.  Using a pendulum is still used by the indigenous as the method for 'seeing' into the spirit world without the eyes, in order to do healing.  'Purification' originally meant removing spirits to purify the body.  The knowledge of that is still in the Mandaean teachings, and Mandaeans follow John the Baptist, not Jesus.  In fact, the Mandaeans consider Jesus counterfeit.  Don't get me wrong.  No matter how much I talk about religious personages or religious information, I am NOT religious in any sense.  I am really trying to clear up the confusion.  I can't stand what religion has done in taking power away from people.  It is a crime to suppress knowledge. 


Chevy: The fact that it is swung in an arc really has nothing to do with anything other than efficiently aiming and broadcasting the smoke to the object or persons to be censed. As altar boys in 6-8 grade, we all thought that the coolest job was to get to prepare the charcoal and incense and swing the censor for one of the services where it was used. It did require some practice to do correctly. Of course, one may believe what they wish, but it may have nothing to do with actual reality and may serve to obscure reality rather than demonstrate it.


    Censors are still just censors.....


Christine: I'm sure it does require some practice.  :)  That whole atmosphere is rife with divination, the "mysteries", which are never explained because they are not known.  "There are many standing at the door; only those who are alone will enter the bridal suite" or "there are many standing around the well, but nobody can drink" are addressing the phenomenon of "entering the kingdom".  These are Jesus sayings in the Gospel of Thomas, but they are actually John the Baptist's teachings about purification which leads to healing.  I imagine the Roman Catholic Church has incorporated the 'arc' movement in the swing of the censor to reminisce about the arc of the covenant or something like that.  An actual hand pendulum doesn't move in an arc, UNLESS a person is not facing the right direction.  If one is ALMOST facing the right direction, i.e., the "door" (portal) a pendulum will move in an arc towards the door ; so will a person's entire body be pulled towards that portal.  "Seek and you will find; [knock and] the door will be opened unto you" is about finding that door.  It seems to me the word "knock" was later added.  You don't knock, you feel it like a magnet pulling you.  In Paul, he mentions testing the spirits, and that's about as close to divination as you will find.  The word 'spirits' has nothing to do with demons.  It is only talking about what can't be seen with the physical eye.  Therefore, to decipher it, one must use a divining instrument of some sort.  A religion that uses words with no meaning is an empty vessel.  That's why it will crumble.



Hi Christine,


                  I realized that it is best not to argue with a mystic. You have your own esoteric interpretations of Christianity which seem to be Gnostic/ esoteric. We don't have to agree. The G.O.T. was written well after Christ's life time and was not included in the canon, but I do have a soft spot in my heart for it. My view of the N.T. and other related Scriptures like Thomas and The Shephard of Hermas is that they form a type of matrix from which any number of possible Christianities can be derived. In the early days of the Church, that's exactly what did happen. It would be interesting to see what would have happened had Gnostic Christians and any number of "heresiach" Christian sects been allowed to thrive alongside Orthodoxy. My view is that you are attempting to ascribe far too much to early orthodox/Catholic ritual and praxis than what was actually there. This conversation is enjoyable, but we're a bit off topic here. If you'd like to continue it, we might want to move over to the Gnostic boards.


                           Cheers- Chevy

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 6:12PM #5093
christine3
Posts: 7,095

Jun 17, 2012 -- 4:53PM, chevy956 wrote:


Hi Christine,


                  I realized that it is best not to argue with a mystic. You have your own esoteric interpretations of Christianity which seem to be Gnostic/ esoteric. We don't have to agree. The G.O.T. was written well after Christ's life time and was not included in the canon, but I do have a soft spot in my heart for it. My view of the N.T. and other related Scriptures like Thomas and The Shephard of Hermas is that they form a type of matrix from which any number of possible Christianities can be derived. In the early days of the Church, that's exactly what did happen. It would be interesting to see what would have happened had Gnostic Christians and any number of "heresiach" Christian sects been allowed to thrive alongside Orthodoxy. My view is that you are attempting to ascribe far too much to early orthodox/Catholic ritual and praxis than what was actually there. This conversation is enjoyable, but we're a bit off topic here. If you'd like to continue it, we might want to move over to the Gnostic boards.


                           Cheers- Chevy




Well, thanks for your suggestion, I'll go over there.  I don't consider myself a Gnostic/esoteric/ mystic tho.  If I had a religion it would be native american.  Native Americans that remove spirits and do healings do it exactly as they did it back then.  It works.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 6:52PM #5094
Aka_me
Posts: 12,143

Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:22AM, mountain_man wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 3:53AM, Aka_me wrote:

if you'd actually try to answer the question... it might become just slightly more obvious. what qualifies a being as small g god?


The use of a capital "G" does not make that god any more real than a god without the capital "G". All gods are equal in that they are entirely a human invention. None of them are real. The christians use the capital "G" since that is the name of their god. Other than that, gods are a useless concept anyway.



I didn't say anything about "more real" or "less real".


the question which still remains unanswered is qualifies a being as a god?


Thor is already dead... his mutual death in battle with Jörmungandr was written about long ago. so obviously immortality is not a requirement to be called a god.


the only answer I can guess, is the ability to work a little magic. and they have a word for that, it's called magician.


so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.

not being able to debate is one thing, employing censorship to avoid debate is beyond words.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 6:57PM #5095
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Jun 17, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Ken wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 4:37PM, chevy956 wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:14PM, Ken wrote:


I don't know why Aka_me wants to discuss theology here.




I don't know why he keeps confusing action figures with gods. I wonder if there is a DSM number for that.....



Oh, that's just the usual Abrahamic anti-polytheism.


If my religion descended from people who were too poor to afford more than one god and too unskilled to make a proper statue of him, I wouldn't brag about it.




I was thinking about that earlier. I am sure they would use the "no idols" nonsense as an excuse, but it interesting,  with the exception of the gruesome crucifix, they have no statuary. No wonder they pick on those who do have likenesses of their gods.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:07PM #5096
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 17, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Aka_me wrote:

so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.



And we don't care.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:13PM #5097
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783


Jun 17, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Aka_me wrote:

so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.




This is the wrong board for that. I have no idea what you mean by separated from the gods. Not everyone is. Sad that you feel you are.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:22PM #5098
steven_guy
Posts: 11,748

Jun 17, 2012 -- 6:52PM, Aka_me wrote:


so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.




Gods are imaginary - fantasy beings that are the products of the human imagination.


Human beings are animals with highly developed brains.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 8:19PM #5099
Blü
Posts: 24,922

Aka_me


so we're still left with no clue of what separates the gods from the humans.


That's easy.  Humans imagine gods. 


Humans even imagine gods imagining humans.  But other than that, there's no vice versa.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 8:56PM #5100
mountain_man
Posts: 39,283

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:02PM, christine3 wrote:

Science is good for some things, not for others...


It is good for finding the truth. Science has found there to be no truth at all to any of the stuff you mentioned.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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