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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 12:57AM #4331
El Cid
Posts: 1,572

Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:09AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Ken wrote:

ec: I am referring to the majority of greeks, they believed that certain classes of people were created by the gods to be slaves and permanent social inferiors.


ken: Some believed that; others disagreed. Alcidamas the Sophist, for example, expressly declared "God has set everyone free. No one is made a slave by nature." In both Greek and Roman law, the children of freed slaves enjoyed full citizenship without restrictions. Given the frequency of manumission, it was difficult if not impossible to ascertain after several generations who was descended from a slave and who was not.


ec: The majority did not agree with Alcidamas.


ken: You have no idea what the majority believed. Their opinions were not recorded.



Given that that was the view of Aristotle, his popularity and reputation most likely was accepted by most Greeks.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:09AM, El Cid wrote:


ken: The fact remains that the modern concept of universal human rights was derived from Stoicism. Indeed, the Christian concept of universal brotherhood was derived from Stoicism as well. The Stoic influence on Christian ethics has often been noted.


ec: The concept of universal brotherhood was derived from Moses revelation from God that all humans are created in his image, long before Stoicism ever existed, ie 1400 BC. And universal human rights were plainly implied long before Stoicism by the Ten Commandments.


ken: The idea that God looks like a human being is common to many cultures. It in no way entails the concept of universal brotherhood.



But Moses and the ancient hebrews believed that all humans are the created children of God and therefore brothers and sisters. They also believed that being created in his image was deeper than just appearance. In fact there is evidence that Moses knew that God was non-physical, though the ordinary hebrews may not have realized that. But they did realize it was more than physical, God also had a mind, will, conscience, and somewhat similar though not identical emotions.


ken: The Ten Commandments don't mention it either.



Yes, the ten commandments plainly implied a right to life, ie "you shall not murder", a right to property, ie "you shall not steal", and a right to a fair trial, ie "you shall not bear false witness". And because the total number of universal laws is relatively small, this implies a right to liberty within a framework of few laws.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:09AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Ken wrote:

ec: Paul's recommendations about the treatment of slaves were not revolutionary. They merely reflect the views of the Stoics, which had been popular among the upper classes for centuries. By the first century CE most Greek and Roman slaveowners regarded them as sound practice.



ec: Evidence?


ken: Study the Stoics and the social history of classical antiquity.



Well you didn't provide any references, but even if I give that to you, Paul popularized those views to the middle and lower classes as they converted. 


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:09AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Ken wrote:

ec: Also, as a hebrew, he still believed in the Year of Jubilee principle, ie that all slaves should be freed during that year.


ken: Only Hebrew debt slaves (not indentured servants - indentured servitude did not exist in antiquity) were freed during a Jubilee. Bondslaves, who were of foreign origin, were not.


ec:  Debt slaves and indentured servants were very similar, both worked for their eventual freedom. No, foreign slaves that had lived in Israel were also freed, see Leviticus 19:33-34 and Exodus 23:9. Permanent slavery would have been oppression of sojourners and foreigners. POW slaves were not freed however.


ken: Leviticus 19:33-34 and Exodus 23:9 are referring to free foreign residents, not slaves.Bondslaves, who were of freign origin, were not freed. See Leviticus 25:44 - 46.


25:44 As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you, you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you.


25:45 Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property.


25:46 You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.



Those verses you quote are referring to the foreigners and sojourners RESIDING in Israel. So the verses in Exodus 23:9, Lev. 19:33-34, and Ex. 22:22-24, apply and therefore in order to comply with these laws, the servitude had to be voluntary. Otherwise it would be mistreatment which is condemned. Also, Deuteronomy 23:15-16 confirms this. And Jeremiah 22:13 prevents involuntary servitude to all residents of Israel.


Apr 14, 2012 -- 1:09AM, El Cid wrote:


ken: The Jubilee ceased to be observed after the Babylonian exile, and I am not aware that Paul suggested reviving it.


ec: Officially that is true, but as a hebrew he believed in the principle of it.


ken: Where does he say so? You are not entitled to conclude that he believed in the principle because he was Jewish. After all, he was a very bad Jew who betrayed his religion.



No, he believed that Christ FULFILLED Judaism. 




 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:29AM #4332
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:

You have no idea what the majority believed. Their opinions were not recorded.



Given that that was the view of Aristotle, his popularity and reputation most likely was accepted by most Greeks.


Most Greeks were unacquainted with philosophy. Among the few who took an interest in it, Aristoteleanism was not the most popular. Stoicism and Epicureanism were until the third century; after that, Neoplatonism.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:

The idea that God looks like a human being is common to many cultures. It in no way entails the concept of universal brotherhood.


But Moses and the ancient hebrews believed that all humans are the created children of God and therefore brothers and sisters.


Moses believed nothing. He was not an historical person.  Like almost everyone else at the time, the ancient Hebrews thought in tribal terms. The Greeks were the first to conceive of universal brotherhood.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:

Ten Commandments don't mention it either.


Yes, the ten commandments plainly implied a right to life, ie "you shall not murder", a right to property, ie "you shall not steal", and a right to a fair trial, ie "you shall not bear false witness".


The Ten Commandments are divided between laws that are purely theological and therefore worthless, and laws common to every human community. There is no implication of universal brotherhood.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:

Paul's recommendations about the treatment of slaves were not revolutionary. They merely reflect the views of the Stoics, which had been popular among the upper classes for centuries. By the first century CE most Greek and Roman slaveowners regarded them as sound practice.


Well you didn't provide any references, but even if I give that to you, Paul popularized those views to the middle and lower classes as they converted.


Prior to the fourth century, hardly anybody converted. Christianity did not become popular until after the conversion of Constantine.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:

ec:  Debt slaves and indentured servants were very similar, both worked for their eventual freedom. No, foreign slaves that had lived in Israel were also freed, see Leviticus 19:33-34 and Exodus 23:9. Permanent slavery would have been oppression of sojourners and foreigners. POW slaves were not freed however.


Leviticus 19:33-34 and Exodus 23:9 are referring to free foreign residents, not slaves.Bondslaves, who were of freign origin, were not freed. See Leviticus 25:44 - 46.


25:44 As for your male and female slaves who may belong to you, you may buy male and female slaves from the nations all around you.


25:45 Also you may buy slaves from the children of the foreigners who reside with you, and from their families that are with you, whom they have fathered in your land, they may become your property.


25:46 You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.


Those verses you quote are referring to the foreigners and sojourners RESIDING in Israel. So the verses in Exodus 23:9, Lev. 19:33-34, and Ex. 22:22-24, apply and therefore in order to comply with these laws, the servitude had to be voluntary.


Leviticus states explicitly that slaves purchased from foreign nations and resident foreigners can be permanently enslaved. Face it - the Hebrews practiced slavery and had no objection to it. The same was true of Christians. They were no better than anyone else. I am nauseated by these feeble attempts to defend Judeo-Christian attitudes toward slavery as somehow superior and enlightened. They were not. The only superior and enlightened attitude toward slavery is one of complete disapproval. Christians should have been forbidden to own slaves.


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Ken wrote:


ken: The Jubilee ceased to be observed after the Babylonian exile, and I am not aware that Paul suggested reviving it.


ec: Officially that is true, but as a hebrew he believed in the principle of it.


Where does he say so? You are not entitled to conclude that he believed in the principle because he was Jewish. After all, he was a very bad Jew who betrayed his religion.



No, he believed that Christ FULFILLED Judaism.


And that is how he betrayed his religion. Good Jews have never believed that.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 1:06PM #4333
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,779

Apr 15, 2012 -- 9:29AM, Ken wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 12:57AM, El Cid wrote:



No, he believed that Christ FULFILLED Judaism.


And that is how he betrayed his religion. Good Jews have never believed that.




Exactly. He betrayed his religion. Judaism does not require fulfilling, it is complete unto itself.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:22AM #4334
El Cid
Posts: 1,572

Mar 19, 2012 -- 11:32AM, F1fan wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 12:17AM, El Cid wrote:

No, genocide is the wiping out of a group of people because of WHO they are, God was meteing out justice on people because of what they had done, ie sin.


f1: So all the little children who drowned in the global flood were guilty of sin?  What sin did they do?



Selfishness, but only those that reached the age of accountability would go to hell.  


f1: And given the events after the flood was over, can't we conclude that god should have wiped out Noah's family too?  They weren't exactly shining examples of humanity.



Noah had faith, but he did not earn God's favor by good deeds, no one does. You are saved by undeserved grace and then your love of God causes you to do good deeds. Noah was chosen because of his faith, and this was probably true of his children as well. 


f1: I'd suggest your god should have saved some Buddhists.



Buddhists did not exist 2 mya.  


f1: But again, your god is incompetent.  It couldn't create humans that could resist temptation, and didn't create a world that didn't have to be wiped out to start again.  As we see, the net effect didn't improve.  Your god killed all those people (including little infants) for no good.



He wanted free will beings not robots. He needed this type of universe and this event to help in His ultimate goal of destroying evil. So they died for ultmately a good purpose.


ec: While He did mete out justice because of sin on the surrounding nations of Israel, He never urged mass rapes, murders, or human sacrifices.


f1: So, allowing them is ok as long as it didn't urge?  And shouldn't the flood have cleaned the planet of sinners?  Looks like he failed again.  Any comment?





He didn't allow the hebrews to do those things. He allows others to do them in order  to accompish His greater good of destroying evil in the universe.  Sometimes bad things have to happen to accomplish a greater good. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:26AM #4335
El Cid
Posts: 1,572

Mar 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, christine3 wrote:


People should cease all belief in what gods want.  Simply notice when fellow beings are in pain.  That alone tells what is not right conduct.





Why is pain bad? And how do you know these things?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 12:56AM #4336
Blü
Posts: 24,683

Cid


Why is pain bad?


Do you speak as a sadist, a masochist, a turn-taker or a psychopath?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 9:08AM #4337
christine3
Posts: 6,681

Apr 16, 2012 -- 12:26AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, christine3 wrote:


People should cease all belief in what gods want.  Simply notice when fellow beings are in pain.  That alone tells what is not right conduct.





Why is pain bad? And how do you know these things?




I was talking about causing harm and pain to others.  But some pain is good, like the kind of pain that teaches not to put hand in fire.  Or mental pain that happens when we do wrong.  Guilt is an indicator for wrong conduct.  Extreme and prolonged guilt is counter effective.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 11:47AM #4338
mountain_man
Posts: 38,790

Apr 16, 2012 -- 12:22AM, El Cid wrote:

Selfishness, but only those that reached the age of accountability would go to hell. 


Evidence?


He wanted free will beings not robots. He needed this type of universe and this event to help in His ultimate goal of destroying evil. So they died for ultmately a good purpose.


Evidence?


He didn't allow the hebrews to do those things. He allows others to do them in order  to accompish His greater good of destroying evil in the universe.  Sometimes bad things have to happen to accomplish a greater good.


Evidence?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 11:49AM #4339
mountain_man
Posts: 38,790

Apr 16, 2012 -- 12:26AM, El Cid wrote:

Why is pain bad?


Who said it was "bad"?


And how do you know these things?


How do you know the things you come up with?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2012 - 2:05PM #4340
JCarlin
Posts: 6,400

Apr 16, 2012 -- 12:26AM, El Cid wrote:

Mar 19, 2012 -- 12:57PM, christine3 wrote:

People should cease all belief in what gods want.  Simply notice when fellow beings are in pain.  That alone tells what is not right conduct.


Why is pain bad? And how do you know these things?


Pain is not necessarily bad, but pain caused by another human whether physical or mental is bad, in fact positively immoral for the one inflicting the pain.  


I know these things because I am an intelligent social animal, and inflicting pain on others of your kind is a genetic prohibition. 


You will note that of your 10 commandments 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10 are commanding not to inflict mental pain on others with certain others enumerated.  And 6 commands that you not inflict physical pain.  This is simply God adopting basic human morality to Herm needs.  No one needs God to do this and in fact the only thing God does is carve out tribal exceptions to this basic human morality.  See the rest of the Old Testament and all of Paul.  


An unindoctrinated human will have not inflicting pain of any kind on others as a basic component of herm conscience which is the term we give to the genetic imperatives of living as an intelligent social animal.    

J'Carlin
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your foot in it and complain.
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