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Switch to Forum Live View The 'existence' of gods
3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 12:28AM #4151
El Cid
Posts: 1,736

Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Mar 2, 2012 -- 6:27PM, El Cid wrote:


Since Marx stated that atheism is a key foundational element of communism, and without it communism cannot survive, then kiling for communism is equivalent to killing for atheism"


Since you have never provided a cite for that position we can dismiss it as the BS it is.


Here is what he actually DID say about religion.


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."





I DID provide a citation, you were not paying attention, it was in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers. I will have to look up the page.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 12:38AM #4152
El Cid
Posts: 1,736

Mar 15, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Blü wrote:


Cid


the foundational presuppostions of Marxism and atheism are the same, ie materialism, atheistic evolutionary origins, and no moral absolutes.


You imply that the 'foundational presuppositions' of your particular Christianity are superstition, ignorance of science and humanity, and the inability to comprehend that that the expression 'moral absolutes' is meaningless.


These presuppositions eventually can produce negative consequences, such narrowmindedness, judgmentalism, intolerance, bigotry, championing the death penalty, demanding that women be treated as breeding cows, prejudice against women, homosexuals and the beliefs of others regarding religion; social rewards for ignorance, an antagonism to education, to critical thinking and to learning generally; and embracing instead the forced indoctrination of children - to name but a few.


And no reasonable person would want any of those.



And except for championing the death penalty for murder, biblically literate Christians have fought against all those things. Evidence that moral absolutes is meaningless? If there is a moral Creator then it is not meaningless. And since there is, it plainly is not.



blu: But back to the topic of this thread.  Can you present us with an argument reasoned from examinable evidence that supernatural beings have objective existence?  An honest Yes or No answer will suffice for the present.





I already did, causality and the universe.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 2:16AM #4153
MUH
Posts: 96

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:38AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 15, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Blü wrote:


Cid


the foundational presuppostions of Marxism and atheism are the same, ie materialism, atheistic evolutionary origins, and no moral absolutes.


You imply that the 'foundational presuppositions' of your particular Christianity are superstition, ignorance of science and humanity, and the inability to comprehend that that the expression 'moral absolutes' is meaningless.


These presuppositions eventually can produce negative consequences, such narrowmindedness, judgmentalism, intolerance, bigotry, championing the death penalty, demanding that women be treated as breeding cows, prejudice against women, homosexuals and the beliefs of others regarding religion; social rewards for ignorance, an antagonism to education, to critical thinking and to learning generally; and embracing instead the forced indoctrination of children - to name but a few.


And no reasonable person would want any of those.



And except for championing the death penalty for murder, biblically literate Christians have fought against all those things. Evidence that moral absolutes is meaningless? If there is a moral Creator then it is not meaningless. And since there is, it plainly is not.



blu: But back to the topic of this thread.  Can you present us with an argument reasoned from examinable evidence that supernatural beings have objective existence?  An honest Yes or No answer will suffice for the present.





I already did, causality and the universe.




Cid - Have you not read anything that I have written?  I thoroughly addressed the argument concerning causality.  Causality applies within the universe, not necessarily to the universe.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 8:20AM #4154
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:21AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:14AM, Ken wrote:


Mar 2, 2012 -- 6:27PM, El Cid wrote:

Since Marx stated that atheism is a key foundational element of communism, and without it communism cannot survive, then kiling for communism is equivalent to killing for atheism



Unmitigated bullshit. Don't you know that until the 1840s all Communists without exception were Christian Communists? And that Christian Communism is still a major force in Latin America today?


I am not sure how a Christian could be a communist if they really understood communism and were biblically literate.



Then you'd better find out, hadn't you? Maybe your own understanding is defective.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 8:24AM #4155
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:28AM, El Cid wrote:


Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Mar 2, 2012 -- 6:27PM, El Cid wrote:


Since Marx stated that atheism is a key foundational element of communism, and without it communism cannot survive, then kiling for communism is equivalent to killing for atheism"


Since you have never provided a cite for that position we can dismiss it as the BS it is.


Here is what he actually DID say about religion.


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."





I DID provide a citation, you were not paying attention, it was in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers. I will have to look up the page.



You must cite Marx himself, not what Daniel Boorstin said about Marx.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 10:33AM #4156
Paladinsf
Posts: 3,660

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:28AM, El Cid wrote:

Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Mar 2, 2012 -- 6:27PM, El Cid wrote:


Since Marx stated that atheism is a key foundational element of communism, and without it communism cannot survive, then kiling for communism is equivalent to killing for atheism"


Since you have never provided a cite for that position we can dismiss it as the BS it is.


Here is what he actually DID say about religion.


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."





I DID provide a citation, you were not paying attention, it was in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers. I will have to look up the page.


A secondary source and that is my point. YOU have never read Marx. YOU have no idea what he said. The little bit you think you know is from someone who told you what Marx said.


IF you had read him, especially his polemics, you would know that running through ALL of them is a MORAL outage at the conditions he sees around him; child labor, 18 hour days, sweat shops, wages so low the worker is soon in debt to the employer, restrictive voting laws, the list goes on.


 


Das Kapital was his attempt to explain WHY this intolerable inhumanity existed. IF you had actually read Marx you would know that he rejected the “parlor room” explanation that Man was just Evil. That some ancient tale about a magic fruit explained all the misery he saw around him. He rejected the idea that the only way real progress was going to happen was when some Jewish zombie came back to set it all right.


What you post shows an ignorance of both Marx and the economic analysis that supports communism. Moreover, what it most clearly shows is YOUR ignorance that for many the source of communism’s’ appeal is a moral outrage very like that shown by JC. They see much in common between Mark 10.21 and “Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.” For Marx, it is the same message in both.


And if you actually READ him you would know that.

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
The belief in supernatural religion will kill us all if we don't outgrow it.

When I first read "End of Faith" I thought Sam went too far. The more I read and listen to these "believers" the more I wonder if maybe he wasn't right after all.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 10:50AM #4157
Sparky_Spotty
Posts: 764

Apr 2, 2012 -- 10:33AM, Paladinsf wrote:

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:28AM, El Cid wrote:

Mar 14, 2012 -- 11:38AM, Paladinsf wrote:


"Mar 2, 2012 -- 6:27PM, El Cid wrote:


Since Marx stated that atheism is a key foundational element of communism, and without it communism cannot survive, then kiling for communism is equivalent to killing for atheism"


Since you have never provided a cite for that position we can dismiss it as the BS it is.


Here is what he actually DID say about religion.


"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."





I DID provide a citation, you were not paying attention, it was in Daniel Boorstin's The Discoverers. I will have to look up the page.


A secondary source and that is my point. YOU have never read Marx. YOU have no idea what he said. The little bit you think you know is from someone who told you what Marx said.


IF you had read him, especially his polemics, you would know that running through ALL of them is a MORAL outage at the conditions he sees around him; child labor, 18 hour days, sweat shops, wages so low the worker is soon in debt to the employer, restrictive voting laws, the list goes on.


 


Das Kapital was his attempt to explain WHY this intolerable inhumanity existed. IF you had actually read Marx you would know that he rejected the “parlor room” explanation that Man was just Evil. That some ancient tale about a magic fruit explained all the misery he saw around him. He rejected the idea that the only way real progress was going to happen was when some Jewish zombie came back to set it all right.


What you post shows an ignorance of both Marx and the economic analysis that supports communism. Moreover, what it most clearly shows is YOUR ignorance that for many the source of communism’s’ appeal is a moral outrage very like that shown by JC. They see much in common between Mark 10.21 and “Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.” For Marx, it is the same message in both.


And if you actually READ him you would know that.


Thanks Paladinsf.


Your post actually makes me want to read Marx.


(Or at least do the Wiki version)

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 10:59AM #4158
mountain_man
Posts: 39,475

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:21AM, El Cid wrote:

I am not sure how a Christian could be a communist if they really understood communism and were biblically literate.


It would help if you understood communism and the bible. You've shown us that you don't.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 11:01AM #4159
mountain_man
Posts: 39,475

Apr 2, 2012 -- 12:26AM, sadiaali wrote:

We believe in only one Allah which is every where intead which is in heart of Muslim,,,


Why do you assume we do not already know that? This is a forum where we discuss Atheism. What about Atheism would you like to discuss?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 02, 2012 - 11:22AM #4160
christine3
Posts: 7,184

Apr 1, 2012 -- 1:09AM, MUH wrote:


Causality is not actually a rule of logic.  If it was, then not even God could be conceived as an exception.  Causality is merely a structural property that obtains within the universe which describes the transfer of information.




that obtains what within the universe?

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