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Switch to Forum Live View Islamism - an ideology not about Islam
4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 9:48PM #11
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Howdy Mountain Man, I don't see any reference to Islam or Muslims in the opening post.... only Islamism and Islamists. 


The relationship between Islamism and Islam is rather complex.... Not everyone agrees upon the proper usage for this term, but the most common understanding is that Islamism represents a strain of political ideology based upon Islamic Law. 


Not everyone agrees that Islamism is the same as Islamofacism, although it certainly has its fascist elements.  For for those who have the interest, I consulted the Wiki gods......WIKI gods here....

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 9:52PM #12
mountain_man
Posts: 40,207

Jun 11, 2010 -- 9:45PM, rangerken wrote:

Let's keep in mind that what is at issue here is NOT Islam, but Islamism! the whole point is that there is a big difference.



Yes, there is a difference. One is spelled with more letters. Other than that, it's a religion that is no worse than any other religion.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 9:56PM #13
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

I watched an interview with Hirsi Ali on the Colbert Report.... In his hilarious, impressionistic style he made much of Ali's suggestions of outreach... that even goes so far to include an introduction to a kinder, gentler version of Christianity and Buddhism. 


 


Here's an exerpt from the article I linked in post #3 that explains her approach. 


"


Create competition of ideas


"We need to compete with agents of radical Islam who to have found their way into vulnerable communities and offer a very simplistic message, and unfortunately young men are adopting it," Ali said.


"What if we had some other guys go in there, some Buddhist, some Christian, but just create competition."


An atheist herself, she is not opposed to advancing the idea of a more tolerant, Christian God, one that is "evolved, science friendly, human friendly, female friendly, not so homophobic," she said.


Ali is keen to promote the ideas of compassion, equality of individuals and fair treatment of women she sees in the West. She argues the fundamentals that underlie Western society are better ideas and that by any measure, such as prosperity, health, freedom, Shariah law is a failure.




Read more: www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2010/06/08/a...

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 10:43PM #14
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jun 11, 2010 -- 6:32PM, JAstor wrote:


 


Those who lost for "causes" in Islamist fanaticism have it all wrong. Islamism is not a reaction to anything (fill in the blank... Western colonialism, Jewish resettlement of its ancient homeland, incident x, incident y, incident z). Rather it is an old ideology trying to rear its ugly head in the modern world.


 


Islamism is belief in the restoration of the caliphate -- as the great moral and religious institution is always was.


 


Islamism is the belief that Islam is ascendant in a world of decadence, including decadent Christians, Jews and non-Islamist muslims.


Islamism is fanatic belief in the triumph of Mohammed -- but focusing on the jihadist, domineering, autocratic, totalitarian elements of his creed.


 


Islamism has various forms -- there is Iranian Islamism, Hamas Islamism, Hezbollah Islamism, now what appears to be a rising Turkish Islamism, etc. Whatever the form, it is on the offensive. Any claimed injustices done against it are in reality merely triggers to justify what it would do anyway. Indeed, that is why it seeks to provoke conflict where it can, as in the recent flotilla provocation.


In any event, the point is that people should not be fooled by appearances. Islamism is not a reactionary phenomenon. It is very proactive, although it prefers (when weak) to do so in superficially reactionary steps.


 


Islamism is not about peace and justice. Peace and justice are tools in its box to advance its program of domination and apocalypse. That is why it is such a dangerous phenomemon. As bad as this ideology was in the past there is no comparison to it potential in the present. It's one thing to put all that hyped-up cries for death to infidels on the tip of a sword; it's an entirely different matter to put it on the tip of a nuclear warhead.


 



What you  are talking about here is extremism and extremism is not just Islamic.  In other faiths, the same illness is  called fundamentalism, orthodoxy, fanaticism  or whatever.


An extremist is a believer.  Believers want certainty.  


The opposite of the believer is a skeptical mind and since there is no certainty is skepticism,  minds who crave certainty embrace  extremism. 


 I don’t think anything can be done to remove extremists. It is a state of mind. 


 Extremists will continue to exists as  politicians, anarchists, socialists, scientists, etc.  They will always find a cause.  


The ones who make  a big deal about Islamic extremism are usually other extremists of a different persuasion. Extremists don't see themselves as extremists.

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 11, 2010 - 11:08PM
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:06PM #15
mountain_man
Posts: 40,207

Jun 11, 2010 -- 10:43PM, arielg wrote:

The ones who make  a big deal about Islamic extremism are usually other extremists of a different persuasion. Extremists don't see themselves as extremists.



You're right. It's the extremism, not the particular religion. Be they Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, or Zoroastrian, extremists are the problem. They don't think. They just blindly and violently believe.


 

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:20PM #16
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

First, the moderating shown on Arielg's post was ONLY done to reduce spacing. NO content was edited... the content is just fine! Whenever any of us does anything to a member's post the fact that we did something is indicated at the bottom, which is entirely proper. again, NO content was edited!


Rangerken, HTZ co-host


 


Second, Islamist extremism is qualitatively and quantitatively different. The plain fact is that today the only religion which is being mis-used to justify murder is Islam... and that is first and foremost grossly unfair to the great majority of Muslims who are neither extremists much less terrorists. But, Islamism, which is just another way of saying radical islamists, ARE the primary source of terror, murder, oppression of women, opposition to freedom of speech, opposition to freedom of religion, and who call for one religion to have secular power over all others. Shariah IS something radical islamists want to impose on everyone. This is obviously and demonstrably true, so trying to say that other religions do the same thing is patently false. Yes, other religions have, in the past, done horrid things. But they have grown up! We do not see Catholic or Hindu or Jewish suicide bombers and we do not hear Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists calling for the beheading of those who do not believe in their religions.


I prefer the term radical islamists to Islamism, but the terms mean the same thing, a subset of Muslims, who cause much more suffering to other Muslims than to others by the way, who are indeed the enemies of modern civilization and, as such, must be vigorously opposed.


That is simply reality, and refusing to recognize this does nothing to defeat this self avowed enemy of everything that we hold dear.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:27PM #17
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 11, 2010 -- 11:20PM, rangerken wrote:


Yes, other religions have, in the past, done horrid things. But they have grown up!



We're still keeping our fingers crossed about some of them.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:36PM #18
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Jun 11, 2010 -- 11:20PM, rangerken wrote:


First, the moderating shown on Arielg's post was ONLY done to reduce spacing. NO content was edited... the content is just fine! Whenever any of us does anything to a member's post the fact that we did something is indicated at the bottom, which is entirely proper. again, NO content was edited!


 


Rangerken, HTZ co-host


 


 


 


Second, Islamist extremism is qualitatively and quantitatively different. The plain fact is that today the only religion which is being mis-used to justify murder is Islam... and that is first and foremost grossly unfair to the great majority of Muslims who are neither extremists much less terrorists. But, Islamism, which is just another way of saying radical islamists, ARE the primary source of terror, murder, oppression of women, opposition to freedom of speech, opposition to freedom of religion, and who call for one religion to have secular power over all others. Shariah IS something radical islamists want to impose on everyone. This is obviously and demonstrably true, so trying to say that other religions do the same thing is patently false. Yes, other religions have, in the past, done horrid things. But they have grown up! We do not see Catholic or Hindu or Jewish suicide bombers and we do not hear Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists calling for the beheading of those who do not believe in their religions.


 


I prefer the term radical islamists to Islamism, but the terms mean the same thing, a subset of Muslims, who cause much more suffering to other Muslims than to others by the way, who are indeed the enemies of modern civilization and, as such, must be vigorously opposed.


 


That is simply reality, and refusing to recognize this does nothing to defeat this self avowed enemy of everything that we hold dear.


 


Ken






Ranger-K


Super post. I certainly can go with it.


J.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:37PM #19
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Thanks Jane... and to Ken... we should keep our fingers crossed, Ken (the other Ken Smile). No religion, most certainly including my own, should ever, under any circumstances, have the slightest secular power or authority. And whatever authority any religion has should apply only to its own believers and then only in ways that do not come into conflict with the secular laws of wherever followers of that religion happen to live. It is the desire by radical islamists to wield secular power that is one of the biggest reasons they must be opposed.


 


Ken (the older one)

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2010 - 12:22AM #20
mountain_man
Posts: 40,207

Jun 11, 2010 -- 11:20PM, rangerken wrote:

...That is simply reality, and refusing to recognize this does nothing to defeat this self avowed enemy of everything that we hold dear.



I'm not falling for the propaganda. The goal here is to take some religious extremists and paint every follower of that religion with the same brush. Oh, sure, the claim is made - as an after thought - that there are "secular" or moderates of that religion, but that qualification is quickly forgotten and all Muslims are seen as evil.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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