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Switch to Forum Live View Public School Prayer (branched off from 'A Gracious God')
3 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2010 - 7:05PM #31
Heidi2027
Posts: 396



I don't think Heidi understands Judaism's aversion to  singing Jesus' praises in public schools, as she's never supported any  Jewish posts which protested Christian prayers in school.

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It would be difficult for you to understand my aversion to anything since I now avoid discussing anything with those who are vicious with impunity -- and with the blessing of the moderator -- on this forum ;)






(more edit to remove spaces.-B_D)


Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on Jun 14, 2010 - 12:13PM
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2010 - 7:19PM #32
Heidi2027
Posts: 396

Jun 12, 2010 -- 5:15PM, ctcss wrote:


That would be me. The confusion you are experiencing occurred because this thread was created/pieced together from the gracious God thread. And since BD was the one culling from that thread and building this one, her name appeared everywhere. You'll find me hiding inside post #7.


(And now Heidi will have a new conspiracy to unravel. Are BD and ctcss the same person? Tune in next time to find out!)





Sorry -- no.


But I can still exercise my right to not believe much of what you say. 


Beliefs aren't right or wrong -- they just are!


Cool

Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on Jun 14, 2010 - 12:17PM
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 3:28AM #33
NahumS
Posts: 1,551

I grew up in a very not-Jewish area in the 60's, and I remember starting the school day with the Lord's Prayer (I still know it by heart!) and Bible reading. As a Jewish kid (one of a small handfull in an entire school), it made me feel uncomfortable. During the singing of Christmas carols, I just sat there - also feeling uncomfortable.


The fact that my home was quite traditional and that we celebrated our own holidays only helped me. I felt that I belonged - just not in public school. Objectively, I'm not sure that that was bad for me.


I once had a conversation with the Chief Rabbi of the British Empire, Lord Rabbi Jacobowitz, as a teenager (he visited our synagogue and asked to meet with the youth group). He was very much in favor of school prayer, since it reminded students that there is a G-d in the world.


I think a few minutes of silence, an opportunity to think "good thoughts", meditate or pray would not be a bad move.


I live in Israel now, and my children all attended "State Religious" schools - public schools where Judaism is taught and practiced. Every day begins with prayers, even though all the kids do not come from religiously observant families. In regular State Schools, as a rule, prayer is not part of the school program, but some have time set aside for the kids who want to hold services to do so. Parents decide which school system is the best for their children, based on their lifestyle and convictions.  


Obviously, the context is very different, and what's appropriate for Israel is not a model for the US, and the opposite is true as well. The US, because of its religious make-up and constitutional history, could not have schools like this.


But it's not necessary to embrace extreme and militant secularism to defend freedom of religion. A few moments of silence for reflection or personal prayer may improve the rest of the school day - and alienate no one or infringe on anyone's rights.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 7:44AM #34
river8101
Posts: 5,150

I think that's true, and I thought that was being practiced in some public schools.  A moment of silence, before class begins.   If a reading is preferable before class, which I don't object to, then a "non religious poem" or a reading from the Bill of Rights, or something like that rather than the Bible of a chosen Christian religion would be preferable.  When I was in school, it was first the bible reading, followed by the Christian Lord's Prayer which we all had to say, standing, heads bowed, hands folded in prayer in front of us, followed by saluting the flag (not hand on heart) and reciting the pledge followed by reciting of the American Creed which at our age, few of us really understood.  I wonder if Heidi could recite that from memory.   I still can.  I had no problem reciting the pledge or the American Creed as there was nothing in there that at my age I had any objection to.


"I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; (a perfect union, one and inseparable;) established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity. (for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.)

I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, (support its Constitution), to obey its laws, and respect its flag, (and to defend it against all enemies.) As I recall, the words in blue parenthesis were left out of our recitation.   I didn't even know they existed until I read it on the internet.

(The words in blue parenthesis were not part of the American's Creed we recited.  Not sure about  (support it's Constitution).  I don't recall that, but possibly it was. 

Also when I went to public school the Pledge to the flag did not incorporate "Under God".   That came about sometime in the mid 50's when the country was still embossed in the McCarthy era.  An awful time in our political history.   Sen. McCarthy was a demigogue.  He was censured at the end of 1954, 67-22. And though I was in school at that time,  and we still said the pledge, I don't think anyone ever said (under God)  because we simply weren't used to saying it that way. This country was founded upon freedom of religion (which means (imo) freedom from religion as well) though for some this has never became acceptable.  Whether one believes in God or not, I see no reason for it to be placed in the middle of a patriotic salute to the flag.  One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, is what the country stands for, not whether all Americans must believe that this country is ruled by God.  And btw, whose God?

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 9:36AM #35
Marysara722
Posts: 2,548

Just wish I could edit a few posts here & there due to the huge amount of extra, extra line spaces.

:/

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 11:23AM #36
river8101
Posts: 5,150

Looks like those xtra line spaces were taken out.  I don't know what happened there. I don't know how the blocks got in there.  But everytime I read through my post and went back to fix the spelling of this or that word, or check the grammar, the spaces came, and even though I fixed them, the spaces ended up all together at the bottom of the post.  I never saw that before. 


 


Marysara, I'm not sure I understand your tagline.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 12:08PM #37
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 4,929

Jun 13, 2010 -- 7:01PM, Heidi2027 wrote:


Jun 13, 2010 -- 1:43PM, Marysara722 wrote:


Jun 11, 2010 -- 6:15AM, river8101 wrote:

I don't think Heidi understands Judaism's aversion to singing Jesus' praises in public schools, as she's never supported any Jewish posts which protested Christian prayers in school.




Hi Riv.  As a child of both religions [on the Maternal side] who has experience with the Catholic side of Christianity, yes, I too don't think she has any idea of what you, Leah and the rest of us have experienced.


You have to truly live it to truly know the experience.





Response to River's post -- which I only see when captured by another poster because she is on "ignore" ...


I didn't realize that praying to God in a public school was singing Jesus' praises verbatim.  Only recently have I understood that Christians and Jews cannot worship the same God, as the definition of the trinity precludes it.  That trinity doctrine is a very bothersome one.





I don't know that that is the case across the board (praying=praising Jesus), but I've heard it is in a lot of places. Having been in several 'evangelical-type' services, a lot of those prayers had a lot of 'praise Jesus' in them. But then, I never had compulsory prayer in school and I went to public school the whole time, so I don't have experience with Catholic schools.


I know a lot of Christians and Christian groups don't believe in the Trinity, although I know a lot more who do.


And I tried to remove the spaces on some posts...only spaces, not content.

More where that came from...

A new-ish forum for women

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 2:17PM #38
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

The Trinity does not necessarily preclude Jews and Christians praying together, but it does make things more complicated.


The God of Judaism and the God of Christianity is believed to be the same Being.


Christians differ from Jews in that they believe they have experienced God acting in the world and in their lives in three distinct ways: creation/providence, redemption/salvation, and inspiration/consolation. Jews in general believe that God acts in all three of these ways (we differ as to what exactly "redemption/salvation" means).


Christianity has experienced these three actions as being performed by three distinct actors which are nonetheless identical with "God." Judaism believes that all three actions are performed by one single actor that is "God."


In Christianity, Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity and thus is God and thus is an object of prayer and worship along with with Father and the Holy Spirit. Christian tradition, and an average Christian liturgy, will adress prayers to all three Persons.


Prayers to the Father pose no problem. The 'Our Father, for example, is a very Jewish prayer. There is no theological barrier to a Jew participating in that prayer, although the prohibition against engaging in "alien" or "unauthorized worship" (avodah zarah) would prevent the religiously scrupulous from doing so.


Prayers to the Holy Spirit really should not be much of an issue either. The concept of the "Holy Spirit" originates in the Tanakh and is treated as an aspect or emanation of God. The Jewish and Christian concepts are close enough that a prayer to the Spirit should not really pose a problem.


The real problem is Jesus. Judaism has no category for incarnate divine persons, so Jesus can be considered either a deified human being or a separate god in addition to the Father. Neither of these is permissible for Jews as an object of prayer and worship. Jews are prohibited from praying and worshipping or invoking the name of any god but YHWH. So, prayers to the Son or prayers "In Jesus's name" are off-limits.


Evangelical Christianity has kind of made a fetish out of the the name of Jesus, making it almost like a magic spell that God won't hear anyone's prayers without them being made "In Jesus's name."


I am most familar with catholic Christianity (Roman, Orthodox, and Anglican) and such is not the case in their worship services.


A Christian and a Jew can join in a prayer addressed to "God" or "God the Father" (as long as the "Fatherhood" is implied to refer to God's parenthood of us all rather than His relation to the Son). Muslims can join in such a prayer as well.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 4:17PM #39
Apushatayid
Posts: 2

Why not set aside several minutes each day for prayer. Each individual can pray to whoever they want, pray for whatever they want and ask for it however they feel most comfortable. Why must any prayer in school follow a scripted text?



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3 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 6:37PM #40
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 11,978

There should be no formal prayer, moments of silence etc... in school. School time should be used for teaching and learning. Why take precious minutes away from the important work of schools?


There is no such thing as non-denominational prayer.


 

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