8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:27PM #1 | |
(Note: By popular request, I've moved the posts regarding public school prayer over here into a new thread. It's going to look funky. but I'll do my best to keep things looking clean while I transfer the posts over. - B_D) LeahOne, 6/2, 8:33p: Having been one of those children (I grew up in Philadelphia), I entirely DISagree with the characerization above. What was outlawed, was the required attendance at assemblies where the KJV was read - a specified number of verses from the 'OT' and 'NT'. This had been done in the '50's at the 'behest' of a conservatve Protestant State Legislature in PA, who were trying to 'counteract' the 'GODless Commies of Russia (They did a far more useful 'conteracting' by beefing up science curricula then, LOL!). My direct personal experience was that I and my 600 classmates, about 590 of whom were Jewish (and the other 10 likely non-observant Roman Catholics!) were required by state law to hav the Vice Principal read 20 verses from the KJV. While the Principal wisely kept the NT portions to Paul's writing about caritas or the Sermon on the Mount - the VP was another matter entirely..... Shall I go into the 'cognitive dissonance' between say, the line in 'Mi Yimalel' which translates as "In every age, a hero or sage (= PHARISEE!) arose to our aid" - and certain passages in the NT about those selfsame Pharisees? Do I really NEED to explain to people the effects of having an authority figure - for this began when I was in first grade! - recite calumny of an entire group of one's faith's 'Fathers' or Heroes? in an 'official' context (remember that bit about 'your permanent record....?) I can't go back and shield 6, 7, 8 year old Leah from that very real assault on her Jewishness - but DAMNED! if I'll ever be silent when that legislated attack by Protestant zealots upon the righs of all other citizens is spoken of as other than it was - bigotry gone wild, an attempt to INDOCTRINATE everyone's children into Protestant Christianity, seizing a position of 'athority' - in direct violation of every intent of the US Constitution! I WILL chain myself to the courthouse steps if need be: it WILL be 'over my dead body' that the rights of us 'minority' faiths to raise our children in our faiths get violated. This 'power grab' by conservative Protestant sects was every bit as wrong as slavery itself, IMHO..... (getting down off the soap-box and dragging it into the corner, where I stand waiting to be smacked by 'the Mods'.....) Heidi - I do believe you mean well. But knowing the details of that old law which was struck down because it automatically disenfranchised every non-Protestant child - I cannot but see it as a negative and destructive act by a 'majority' frantic to keep its hold on our country..... an ugly remnant of the days when 'Christian' included an assumed precedence over all other faiths.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:30PM #2 | |
Heidi2027, 6/2, 9:15p Great idea for a new thread -- Public School Prayer: Ostracization of Jews ### The 1963 strike down was merely one example from that tumultuous decade. We also saw much moral collapse. The hippies of the sixties and seventies (I was one of them) are now running our government (I am not one of them) and they seem to have no moral compass. When I speak of outlawing prayer in public schools, and neutering God from the public square as has been done in the UK (all in the name of multiculturalism which is preparing the way for Shariah law) I am talking about the same God you pray to, Leah. Not the Protestant one that seems to stalk you. Since day one of my coming on this forum, you and a couple of others have a very troubling propensity to view everything I say as fodder for partisan sniping. Try something else.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:36PM #3 | |
LeahOne, 6/2, 10:03p: Heidi, I think you misunderstand me completely. I have no patience for 'party politics' types: my war cry' is "A pox on both your fringes!" Do you honestly think there's any Constitutional support for promoting one particular religious view in our PUBLIC schools? To children as young as 6 years old? I certainly don't - and I don't care one whit whether supporters of such an obscenity vote Democrat or Republican. Nor am I particularly 'liberal' on many issues myself. While I enjoyed the 'hippy' clothes, I didn't indulge in 'free love', for one - but I've tried not to judge others for their different choices. I was very fortunate, I feel, in being able to learn from others' mistakes. And I'm grateful to those who shared their struggles with me - because their words spared me great misery. I DO feel that especially at this time, we need to provide our children with some 'common denominator' of what it means to be American. And I think that denominator is readily available in a NONmilitaristic patriotism, drawn not from 'In GOD we Trust' - but 'E Pluribus Unum'.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:41PM #4 | |
Heidi2027, 6/2, 10:12p
Our children apparently aren't getting 'what it means to be American.' In God We Trust is obviously an apt motto -- it is on every piece of coin and currency. What I am saying is that when God is removed from our public identity, in a strictly sanitized secular identity -- there is going to be a hole to fill. There are those ready to fill it with their own laws and doctrines. Are you in favor of international law trumping our Constitution? This president is a transnationalist -- our sovereignty is at risk whether you give a whit or not.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:43PM #5 | |
LeahOne, 6/3, 1:12a Heidi: 'In GOD we Trust' was added to our coinage quite a long time after the Revolution - like the 'under GOD' in the Pledge, it wasn't there originally. In case you didn't get it, I'm talking strictly on an INternal basis, about the Constitution which is the 'Bible' of the American nation. And there is plenty of 'civil religion' to be had, if one will - patriotism does not have to be militaristic or simplistic. I feel you're making unwarranted assumptions about my views, and I'd apreciate it if you'd find the patience to ASK me questions first. Again, you seem to be laboring under the misconception that I'm some kind of a 'liberal', or that I have enthusiastic support for the current administration. GOD belongs in many places in American life - but NOT! in public elementary school classrooms. The ONLY way to protect everyone's religious rights is to leave it out of the public education system. We cannot even 'require' a belief in a Deity: atheists and agnostics *must* have the same rights as you and I, or you and I have betrayed the vision of the Founding Fathers to leave 'GOD' up to each individual's conscience. The 'fight' is not between the 'GODly' and the 'GODless': it's between those who will allow individuals freedom of any religious view, and those who insist on trying to involve the
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:44PM #6 | |
River8101, 6/3, 5:46a Leah, I couldn't agree with you more. When I was in elementary school, where 95% of the kids were Christians, I had to endure NT bible reading every morning, a favorite being "For God so loved the world .... and whoever believes in him has everlasting life.... (what did that mean to a Jewish child?) Fear. I endured physical abuse, nasty verbal abuse and a teacher who tried to convert me with scary 8x10 bloody pictures in full color of the crucifixion and hell. Religion doesn't belong in a public school. People of all faiths and no faith pay taxes for public schools. My High School was in a predonimately Jewish neighborhood, where most all of the kids were Jewish. Still, we had Xmas assemblies every year, and all children were forced to participate. Therefore they had to sing religious carols at Xmas assemblies and in music class, during December, or get a failing grade in music, even though several asked to be excused from singing. I, being a music major didn't really mind, as I understood and liked the music and paid little attention to the meaning of the lyrics. But many of the other more orthodox kids felt uncomfortable and only pretended to mouth the words. What really urks me as I look back now, is not one single Hanukkah song was ever taught in a school where at least 9 out 10 kids were Jewish. This happened with my kids in public schools as well, but only kids who wanted to participate did. But times have changed even more. Two of my 5 grandchildren go to private school. During the winter holidays, they also give a performance. Quite different from my days in schools. In their schools there are different cultures represented besides Christian childen. Some, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, African, Spanish, French, children also. And those different cultures are represented. There are no "religious" songs sung, but winter songs and/or little poems and short skits or sketches are performed by the children from many different cultures. And furthermore those songs and sketches from different parts of the world are not neccessarily performed by the child from that particular culture but from a different culture. There is an exchange of understanding, and specific "hard religious views" are not represented. If a Xmas type song is sung, it won't be "Christ the savior is born" as we once had to sing, instead it might be a song about snow, or winter, or more specifically a song learned in French, African or Spanish. It's a small world, and we'd better learn to know each other before we blow ourselves up. Religious children have a chance to perform their Xmas in churches where religion belongs. Which brings me to the main subject of this thread and this forum. Why are some Christians churches, MJ, j4j and Hebrew Christians using Jewish seders and Haggadahs, and transforming those seders into the Christian Easter?
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:47PM #7 | |
ctcss, 6/3, 7:21a
I offer my humblest apologies. You've generally been one of the more consistently gentle posters on Bnet and a would be a nice addition to any thread IMO.
Actually, it was an assault on anyone who didn't practice the faith of those in charge. I guess I qualify as a Protestant Christian (Christian Science certainly doesn't spring from Catholic or Orthodox roots), but I always wondered why I had to say the Lord's Prayer in a manner that seemed foreign to me. It made me very aware that I was different than the others around me (I'm guessing Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, and, of course, my Jewish neighbors.)
Heidi, that "hole" you are talking about needs to be filled by the familiy giving their children a strong grounding in their own faith (at least for those of us who are religious). I did not receive anything of religious value from the state other than the right to practice freely. It was my mom's strong stand and example as a Christian Scientist (as well as members of our church) that gave me something to think about and to practice on my own. It was only as I did that more and more of that on my own that I gained the confidence to start facing the problems that the world presents using what I had learned (and am continuing to learn) from my family and my church.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:48PM #8 | |
nieciedo, 6/3, 7:50a I have never understood the idiots who complain about how God is somehow being taken out of people's lives by not forcing other people to participate in religious devotions if they don't choose to. What is stopping these people from praying to God and learning about their religion on their own time and dime? You want to pray to God? Fine do it in church or at home. You want to teach your children the Bible? Fine. Do it in church or at home. Why is the public school supposed to be the appropriate venue for this idiocy?
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:49PM #9 | |
nieciedo, 6/3, 7:54a Here's a perfect example of conservative hypocrisy in education. They oppose sex education because they think teaching about something as important and personal and fraught with moral considerations as sex should not be the responsibility of the public schools but should be handled by parents and clergy. Yet they see nothing wrong with public schools promoting God and religion. These people are worse than any Iranian or terrorist or taqiyya merchant Muslim could ever be.
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8 years ago :: Jun 03, 2010 - 9:51PM #10 | |
nieciedo, 6/3, 7:57a
You think that matters? You honestly believe that the United States actually has sovereignty? We are ruled by multinational corporations so of course international "law" trumps our Constitution.
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