Post Reply
Page 1 of 11  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Public School Prayer (branched off from 'A Gracious God')
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:27PM #1
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

(Note: By popular request, I've moved the posts regarding public school prayer over here into a new thread. It's going to look funky. but I'll do my best to keep things looking clean while I transfer the posts over. - B_D)



LeahOne, 6/2, 8:33p:




IN the full understanding that this is also in a sense off-topic, I  must offer a correction to the following:"In 1963 we outlawed  prayer in public schools and eliminated God from the public sector and  from the collective conscience of our children.  That shift from God's  wisdom to man's "wisdom" has not proven to be for the good of the  children."


Having been one of those children (I grew up in  Philadelphia), I entirely DISagree with the characerization above.


What  was outlawed, was the required attendance at assemblies  where the KJV was read - a specified number of verses from the 'OT' and  'NT'.  This had been done in the '50's at the 'behest' of a  conservatve Protestant State Legislature in PA, who were trying to  'counteract' the 'GODless Commies of Russia (They did a far more useful  'conteracting' by beefing up science curricula then, LOL!).   My direct  personal experience was that I and my 600 classmates, about 590 of whom  were Jewish (and the other 10 likely non-observant Roman Catholics!)  were required by state law to hav the Vice Principal read 20 verses  from the KJV.  While the Principal wisely kept the NT portions to Paul's  writing about caritas or the Sermon on the Mount - the VP was another  matter entirely.....


Shall I go into the 'cognitive  dissonance' between say, the line in 'Mi Yimalel' which translates as  "In every age, a hero or sage (= PHARISEE!) arose to our aid"  - and  certain passages in the NT about those selfsame Pharisees?


Do I  really NEED to explain to people the effects of having an authority  figure - for this began when I was in first grade! - recite calumny of  an entire group of one's faith's 'Fathers' or Heroes? in an 'official'  context (remember that bit about 'your permanent record....?)


I  can't go back and shield 6, 7, 8 year old Leah from that very real  assault on her Jewishness - but DAMNED! if I'll ever be silent when that  legislated attack by Protestant zealots upon the righs of all other  citizens is spoken of as other than it was - bigotry gone wild, an  attempt to INDOCTRINATE everyone's children into Protestant  Christianity, seizing a position of 'athority' - in direct violation of  every intent of the US Constitution!


I WILL chain myself to  the courthouse steps if need be:  it WILL be 'over my dead body' that  the rights of us 'minority' faiths to raise our children in our faiths  get violated.  This 'power grab' by conservative Protestant sects was  every bit as wrong as slavery itself, IMHO.....


(getting down  off the soap-box and dragging it into the corner, where I stand waiting  to be smacked by 'the Mods'.....)


Heidi - I do believe  you mean well.  But knowing the details of that old law which was  struck down because it automatically disenfranchised every  non-Protestant child - I cannot but see it as a negative and destructive  act by a 'majority' frantic to keep its hold on our country..... an  ugly remnant of the days when 'Christian' included an assumed precedence  over all other faiths.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:30PM #2
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152
Heidi2027, 6/2, 9:15p

Great idea for a new thread -- Public School Prayer: Ostracization of Jews


###


The 1963  strike down was merely one example from that tumultuous decade.  We also  saw much moral collapse.  The hippies of the sixties and seventies (I  was one of them) are now running our government (I am not one of them)  and they seem to have no moral compass.


When I speak of  outlawing prayer in public schools, and neutering God from the public  square as has been done in the UK (all in the name of multiculturalism  which is preparing the way for Shariah law) I am talking about the same  God you pray to, Leah.  Not the Protestant one that seems to stalk you.


Since  day one of my coming on this forum, you and a couple of others have a  very troubling propensity to view everything I say as fodder for  partisan sniping.  Try something else.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:36PM #3
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152





LeahOne, 6/2, 10:03p:


Heidi, I think you misunderstand me completely.  I have no patience  for 'party politics' types:  my war cry' is "A pox on both your  fringes!"


Do you honestly think there's any Constitutional  support for promoting one particular religious view in our PUBLIC  schools?  To children as young as 6 years old?   I certainly don't - and  I don't care one whit whether supporters of such an obscenity vote  Democrat or Republican.

Nor am I particularly 'liberal' on  many issues myself.  While I enjoyed the 'hippy' clothes, I didn't  indulge in 'free love', for one - but I've tried not to judge others for  their different choices.  I was very fortunate, I feel, in being able  to learn from others' mistakes.  And I'm grateful to those who shared  their struggles with me - because their words spared me great misery.


I  DO feel that especially at this time, we need to provide our children  with some 'common denominator' of what it means to be American.  And I  think that denominator is readily available in a NONmilitaristic  patriotism, drawn not from 'In GOD we Trust' - but 'E Pluribus Unum'. 




More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:41PM #4
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

Heidi2027, 6/2, 10:12p



Jun  2, 2010 --  10:03PM, LeahOne wrote:

Heidi, I think you misunderstand me  completely.  I have no patience for 'party politics' types:  my war cry'  is "A pox on both your fringes!"

Do you honestly think  there's any Constitutional support for promoting one particular  religious view in our PUBLIC schools?  To children as young as 6 years  old?   I certainly don't - and I don't care one whit whether supporters  of such an obscenity vote Democrat or Republican.


Nor am I  particularly 'liberal' on many issues myself.  While I enjoyed the  'hippy' clothes, I didn't indulge in 'free love', for one - but I've  tried not to judge others for their different choices.  I was very  fortunate, I feel, in being able to learn from others' mistakes.  And  I'm grateful to those who shared their struggles with me - because their  words spared me great misery.

I DO feel that especially at  this time, we need to provide our children with some 'common  denominator' of what it means to be American.  And I think that  denominator is readily available in a NONmilitaristic patriotism, drawn  not from 'In GOD we Trust' - but 'E Pluribus Unum'.  


Besides,  do you think the Master of ALL can be kept out of anywhere that people  invite Him in?

Our children  apparently aren't getting 'what it means to be American.'


In  God We Trust is obviously an apt motto -- it is on every piece of coin  and currency. 


What I am saying is that when God is removed  from our public identity, in a strictly sanitized secular identity --  there is going to be a hole to fill.  There are those ready to fill it  with their own laws and doctrines. 


Are you in favor of  international law trumping our Constitution?  This president is a  transnationalist -- our sovereignty is at risk whether you give a whit  or not.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:43PM #5
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

LeahOne, 6/3, 1:12a


Heidi:  'In GOD we Trust' was added to our coinage quite a long time  after the Revolution - like the 'under GOD' in the Pledge, it wasn't  there originally.


In case you didn't get it, I'm talking  strictly on an INternal basis, about the Constitution which is the  'Bible' of the American nation.   And there is plenty of 'civil  religion' to be had, if one will - patriotism does not have to be  militaristic or simplistic. 


I feel you're making unwarranted  assumptions about my views, and I'd apreciate it if you'd find the  patience to ASK me questions first.  Again, you seem to be laboring  under the misconception that I'm some kind of a 'liberal', or that I  have enthusiastic support for the current administration. 


GOD  belongs in many places in American life - but NOT! in public elementary  school classrooms.  The ONLY way to protect everyone's religious rights  is to leave it out of the public education system.   We cannot even  'require' a belief in a Deity:  atheists and agnostics *must* have the  same rights as you and I, or you and I have betrayed the vision of the  Founding Fathers to leave 'GOD' up to each individual's conscience.


The  'fight' is not between the 'GODly' and the 'GODless':  it's between  those who will allow individuals freedom of any religious view, and  those who insist on trying to involve the
State in some way in  individuals' religious life.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:44PM #6
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

River8101, 6/3, 5:46a



Leah, I couldn't agree with you more.   When I was in elementary  school, where 95% of the kids were Christians, I had to endure NT bible  reading every morning, a favorite being "For God so loved the world  ....  and whoever believes in him has everlasting life....  (what did  that mean to a Jewish child?) Fear.   I endured physical abuse, nasty  verbal abuse and a teacher who tried to convert me with scary 8x10  bloody pictures in full color of the crucifixion and hell.  Religion  doesn't belong in a public school.   People of all faiths and no faith  pay taxes for public schools.


My High School was in a  predonimately Jewish neighborhood, where most all of the kids were  Jewish.  Still, we had Xmas assemblies every year, and all children were  forced to participate. Therefore they had to sing religious carols at   Xmas assemblies and in music class, during December, or get a failing  grade in music, even though several asked to be excused from singing.   I, being a music major didn't really mind, as I understood and liked the  music and paid little attention to the meaning of the lyrics.  But many  of the other more orthodox kids felt uncomfortable and only pretended  to mouth the words.  What really urks me as I look back now, is not one  single Hanukkah song was ever taught in a school where at least 9 out 10  kids were Jewish.  This happened with my kids in public schools as  well, but only kids who wanted to participate did.   But times have  changed even more.

Two of my 5 grandchildren go to private  school.  During the winter holidays, they also give a performance. Quite  different from my days in schools.  In their schools  there are  different cultures represented besides Christian childen. Some,  Hindu,  Muslim, Jewish, African, Spanish, French, children also.  And those  different cultures are represented.  There are no "religious" songs  sung, but winter songs and/or little poems and short skits or sketches  are performed by the children from many different cultures.  And  furthermore those songs and sketches from different parts of the world  are not neccessarily performed by the child from that particular culture  but from a different culture.  There is an exchange of understanding,  and specific "hard religious views" are not represented.  If a Xmas type  song is sung, it won't be "Christ the savior is born" as we once had to  sing, instead it might be a song about snow, or winter,  or more  specifically a song learned in French, African or Spanish.  It's a small  world, and we'd better learn to know each other before we blow  ourselves up.  Religious children have a chance to perform their Xmas in  churches where religion belongs. 


Which brings me to the main  subject of this thread and this forum.  Why are some Christians  churches, MJ, j4j and Hebrew Christians using Jewish seders and  Haggadahs, and transforming those seders into the Christian Easter?
More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:47PM #7
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

ctcss, 6/3, 7:21a



Jun  1, 2010 --   8:53AM, LeahOne wrote:

@CTCSS:  I realize that ST hasn't been getting quite  the reception in spirit that IMO his question deserved.  And now you can  feel free to extend your apologies to me for the suggestion-by-omission  that I was less-than-cordial in my reponses....  : ))



I  offer my humblest apologies. You've generally been one of the more  consistently gentle posters on Bnet and a would be a nice addition to  any thread IMO.



Jun  2, 2010 --  8:33PM, LeahOne wrote:

I  can't go back and shield 6, 7, 8 year old Leah from that very real  assault on her Jewishness - but DAMNED! if I'll ever be silent when that  legislated attack by Protestant zealots upon the righs of all other  citizens is spoken of as other than it was - bigotry gone wild, an  attempt to INDOCTRINATE everyone's children into Protestant  Christianity, seizing a position of 'athority' - in direct violation of  every intent of the US Constitution!



Actually,  it was an assault on anyone who didn't practice the faith of those in  charge. I guess I qualify as a Protestant Christian (Christian Science  certainly doesn't spring from Catholic or Orthodox roots), but I always  wondered why I had to say the Lord's Prayer in a manner that seemed  foreign to me. It made me very aware that I was different than the  others around me (I'm guessing Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, and, of  course, my Jewish neighbors.)



Jun  2, 2010 -- 10:12PM, Heidi2027 wrote:

Our  children apparently aren't getting 'what it means to be American.'

In  God We Trust is obviously an apt motto -- it is on every piece of coin  and currency.

What I am saying is that when God is removed from  our public identity, in a strictly sanitized secular identity -- there  is going to be a hole to fill.  There are those ready to fill it with  their own laws and doctrines.



Heidi,  that "hole" you are talking about needs to be filled by the familiy  giving their children a strong grounding in their own faith (at least  for those of us who are religious). I did not receive anything of  religious value from the state other than the right to practice freely.  It was my mom's strong stand and example as a Christian Scientist (as  well as members of our church) that gave me something to think about and  to practice on my own. It was only as I did that more and more of that  on my own that I gained the confidence to start facing the problems that  the world presents using what I had learned (and am continuing to  learn) from my family and my church.

Look, they say that all  politics is local. Well, in many ways, all problems are personal. Long  before most of us encounter the "bad guys" in real life, we will  encounter them in thought. And, all too often, we will find those "bad  guys" in the thoughts (hatred, anger, impatience, suspicion,  indifference, etc.) we entertain about others. Before Martin Luther King  Jr could confront the violence and hatred of those who espoused  rascism, he had to confront violence and hatred in himself and overcome  it there before he could overcome it in others. He didn't physically arm  himself or his followers. He simply confronted his foes and helped them  repent (rethink, reconsider) what it was they were doing. He didn't  physically wipe them out in order to succeed in his mission. The battle  was a mental one and it happened in each person's thought. Our personal  mental battles are tough, but they are the only ones that can bring  about an actual change in our experience.

Since this thread is  about the grace of God, you might want to consider how it is possible  for God's grace (loving, patient, tender, and strong) to act in each one  of us (even those whom we may consider to be the bad guys) to bring  about a greater sense of God's dominion in our thoughts (and therefore  in all of our lives) so that, well, we won't have enemies anymore.Smile

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:48PM #8
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

nieciedo, 6/3, 7:50a



I have never understood the idiots who complain about how God is  somehow being taken out of people's lives by not forcing other people to  participate in religious devotions if they don't choose to.


What  is stopping these people from praying to God and learning about their  religion on their own time and dime?

You want to pray  to God? Fine do it in church or at home. You want to teach your  children the Bible? Fine. Do it in church or at home. Why is the public  school supposed to be the appropriate venue for this idiocy?


More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:49PM #9
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

nieciedo, 6/3, 7:54a



Here's a perfect example of conservative hypocrisy in education.


They  oppose sex education because they think teaching about something as  important and personal and fraught with moral considerations as sex  should not be the responsibility of the public schools but should be  handled by parents and clergy.

Yet they see nothing wrong with  public schools promoting God and religion.


These people are  worse than any Iranian or terrorist or taqiyya merchant Muslim could  ever be.
More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 9:51PM #10
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

nieciedo, 6/3, 7:57a



Jun  2, 2010 --  10:12PM, Heidi2027 wrote:

 Are you in favor of international law  trumping our Constitution?  This president is a transnationalist -- our  sovereignty is at risk whether you give a whit or not.



You think that matters?


You  honestly believe that the United States actually has sovereignty?


We  are ruled by multinational corporations so of course international  "law" trumps our Constitution.

More where that came from...

Writing I get paid to do

Beliefnet Community Host - Christian Faith and Life, Christian to Christian Debate
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 11  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook