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Switch to Forum Live View Judaism v. Messianic Judaism-what's the difference?
5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 4:31PM #1
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,167

I'm starting this thread because I think river had a good idea...


What are some differences between 'regular' Judaism and Messianic Judaism? Other than the obvious, that is. Personally I think MJs are Christians, period, not Jews, but apparently others disagree with me. 


So, what do you think?

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 6:11PM #2
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

Some MJ's are Christians, there are others who are what the earlier followers of Yeshua were.  It isn't possible to put everyone in one pile and say all are this or all are that.  I know that many Christians have turned to Messianic Judaism and brought with them their belief in the trinity and other Christian traditions that don't pertain to Judaism, but there are many others who are Jewish and believe in Yeshua and include Him in their worship


I belong to many discussion groups on line including Messianic groups.  As I already stated, some are Christians, many of them are not.


The main difference would have to be as the title suggests, a belief in Yeshua as the Messiah.  In most instances the worship is Jewish, in fact I go to one on Friday nites to read Torah!

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 6:21PM #3
LeahOne
Posts: 16,463

They read Torah?   In Hebrew?


And please won't you explain to me how you are sure their worship follows the Jewish liturgy?   I'm confused about that...... 

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 6:32PM #4
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,566

I am confused about reading from the Torah on Friday Night, since there is no Torah service in a traditional Friday night service. Torah is read on Saturday morning. I wonder do the so called Messianics read the correct parsha each week? Since none of them have anything to do with that Jesus fellow, it must be something of a disconnect for them.


The main and obvious difference between Messianic Judaism and Judaism is Judaism is Judiasm and Messianic Judaism is Christianity flying under a false flag.


My neighbors, who are wonderful people and Evangelicals (it is possible to be both) went to a few Messianic services  to see what Judaism was all about. Of course, I reminded them that Messiaincs are not Jews and if he wanted to know about Judaism they would have to study it and perhpas go to schul with me a few times. (they declined the offer) After they told me about the service  it was pretty clear to me that it had no more to do with a traditional Jewish service than does a Catholic Mass. On the other hand, they could only tell me about the services they attended.

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 6:57PM #5
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

I go to a service on Friday nites at eight o'clock to read from Torah!  I am not going to try to explain to you what that means, because I don't really think it's necessary.  We are now reading from the Bk of Leviticus.  I believe that is one of the first five books is it not.


I don't understand why there is so much prejudice here.  I know when Jews have prejudice against them it's called Anti-Semitism.  What is prejudice against  MJ's called because I certainly wish it would stop.


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 7:16PM #6
LeahOne
Posts: 16,463

LOOK at the title of this thread.  It's an attempt to COMPARE PRACTICES & BELIEFS between Judaism and MJ.


NOW, kingdom tells us "In the MJ congregation I attend, they read Torah on Friday night"


I asked 'In Hebrew?' because Jewish congregations read Torah in Hebrew.


Rocket asked "On Friday night?" because Jews read Torah on Saturday morning.


And what is kingdom's response?  She does not answer per se, she accuses both of us of being 'prejudiced'.....


So, how can we do any comparing?


 


Was there something wrong with my asking that question?


Obviously, Kingdom - it DOES require 'explanation' , or I wouldn't have had a question.

Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on May 12, 2010 - 12:00PM
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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 7:46PM #7
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,167

I'll have to look again but last time I heard, one of the primary (hey, maybe *the* primary) beliefs of Christianity was that jesus was the messiah they'd been waiting for. Which effectively puts them *outside* Judaism. How did the earlier followers believe that was different? It's not prejudice for me to ask this question or for others to attempt to compare the two beliefs on a thread and board asking them to do so.   I went to an MJ service once on Saturday morning...there was a reading in Hebrew (at least, I think it was Hebrew, it certainly wasn't English), the prayers books were in Hebrew (with English translations), but the sermon was about worship of Jesus. Christian. Even one of the ladies at the service  I talked to said that they were effectively Christian but that she felt the point of MJ was to worship Jesus as the Messiah while still holding onto some aspects of their Jewish heritage.  I've never been to a synagogue-although I think I'd find that interesting-so I can't tell what parts of the service were taken from Jewish services.   Be back later...

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 9:28PM #8
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

I'll have to look again but last time I heard, one of the primary (hey, maybe *the* primary) beliefs of Christianity was that jesus was the messiah they'd been waiting for. Which effectively puts them *outside* Judaism. How did the earlier followers believe that was different? It's not prejudice for me to ask this question or for others to attempt to compare the two beliefs on a thread and board asking them to do so.


I'm not sure I understand the question.  It was the earlier Jewish followers of Yeshua who believed He was the Messiah they'd been waiting for.  So how does this make them 'outside' Judaism.  Yeshua still attended Synoguage, still taught in synoguage and was considered a Rabbi.  Somehow the teachings of the Jewish Rabbi Yeshua/Jesus, became more pagan then  Jewish.  Sorry about that beautiful Dreamer, but that's what my research shows.  Some researchers believe that the Apostle Paul believed Yeshua would return in his, Paul's lifetime.  He/Paul believed he had to convert as many as he could so he had no time to teach Yeshua's Judaism.  This was unfortunatle but it was impossible for Paul to envision what changes would be made over time. 


These are things I have learned over a long, long period of time.  At 74 I still have many questions, but the conclusion, so far, I have come to is Yeshua was Jewish, believed as a Jewish man and followed Jewish law.  Somehow because of that I believe that's what we as His followers should also be doing.


I'm not evangelizing, just answering a question.


 


I've got to go, the dogs are barking outside, got to get them in.

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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2010 - 11:12PM #9
LeahOne
Posts: 16,463

"It was the earlier Jewish followers of Yeshua who believed He was the Messiah they'd been waiting for.  So how does this make them 'outside' Judaism. "


We've explained this before, several times.  Judaism isn't big on doctrine - but part of its 'doctrine' is the belief that the MbD will be a genetic descendant of King David (Jesus was not, according to the Gospel genaeologies), will accomplish certain tasks (which Jesus did not) - and will be recognized as the MbD by ALL of Israel.   So it is obvious that normative Judaism, mainstream Judaism, 'authentic' Judaism does not believe Jesus was the MbD.


And it's the collective voice of the Congregation of Israel which determines what *is* Judaism- not anyone outside of it, even though they may still be part of the Jewish People.  So once the mainstream rejected the 'Jesus people', they are outside of the Congregation of Israel.


Which part of that do you not understand, Kingdom?

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5 years ago  ::  May 07, 2010 - 4:30AM #10
river8101
Posts: 5,564

There are some major differences between the Messianic religion and the Jewish religion.  Messianics believe in the NT, Jews don't.  MJ believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, Jews don't. Jews use the Talmud to define and explain their Torah.  Messianics don't.   Messianics believe they are part of the Jewish faith.  Jews don't see it that way.  Jews see MJ as a part of a Christian faith, not a Jewish one.  Right there are very major differences.  Just because they tagged Jew onto their names doesn't make them Jewish, nor incorporate their beliefs or their brief history into our 3000 year survival. 


What non Jews don't understand about Judaism is that Judaism is not a "religion" as in some other religions.  It's not about belief!   When asked by a Christian, What's the difference between Jews and Christians?  The correct answer is History.  And that's something that can't be changed. The other is Survival.  Judaism is a civilization, a way of life, a community.  Messianics are always trying to define Judaism, but they can't because they approach Judaism from a Christian point of view.  They approach it through belief, and that's incorrect when having a discussion with Jews.  Just read the Jewish forum!  (Two Jews, three opinions) The Talmud is filled with different opinions on the same question or subject.  Christians don't use the Talmud, they have their Apostles Creed. Simple and to the point, unlike Judaism. 


What I wanted to write was that though there are major differences between different religions there are also some similarities.  Take Buddhism, for instance.  Some Jews feel connected to it.  Of course, Buddhism is as much a philosophy as a religion, but their philosophy is much like Jewish philosophy, unlike Christianity which is nothing like Jewish philosophy.  The leader of Buddhism today is the Dalai Lama.  The Dalai Lama has been interviewed by the Jewish Times, and several other rabbis, and they found many, many similarities between the two.  One main similarity was Survival.  Below are some studies of the Eight Fold Path:  Much of this corresponds to Judaism. 


Wisdom:  Right View, Right Intention.


Ethical Conduct:  Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood


Mental Development:  Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration. 


www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpat...


(I'll just address "Right Speech"  because that's NOT what's been going on here:)


"Right speech is the first principle of ethical conduct in the eightfold path. Ethical conduct is viewed as a guideline     to moral discipline, which supports the other principles of the path. This aspect is not self-sufficient, however, essential, because mental purification can only be achieved through the cultivation of ethical conduct. The importance of speech in the context of Buddhist ethics is obvious: words can break or save lives, make enemies or friends, start war or create peace. Buddha explained right speech as follows: 1. to abstain from false speech, especially not to tell deliberate lies and not to speak deceitfully, 2. to abstain from slanderous speech and not to use words maliciously against others, 3. to abstain from harsh words that offend or hurt others, and 4. to abstain from idle chatter that lacks purpose or depth. Positively phrased, this means to tell the truth, to speak friendly, warm, and gently and to talk only when necessary."


I thought this next article was an interesting article and not too long.  There are many interesting articles on the net between the Dalai Lama and Jewish leaders and rabbis.  Here's one.


www.nytimes.com/1989/09/26/nyregion/dala...


I'm not going to keep going on about this because it might not belong here, but because IMO, the philosophy of Judaism and Buddhism are more alike than Judaism and any other philosophy (especially MJ) I thought I'd add it. 


 

Moderated by Beautiful_Dreamer on May 12, 2010 - 11:49AM
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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