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Switch to Forum Live View Put the pope in the dock
5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 7:37AM #1
Kwinters
Posts: 22,168

Do other Christians feel the Pope is claiming a special immunity unfairly denied to other religious faiths - including other Christian denoms?


 


'...In legal actions against Catholic archdioceses in the US it has been alleged that the same conduct reflected Vatican policy as approved by Cardinal Ratzinger (as the pope then was) as late as November 2002. Sexual assaults were regarded as sins that were subject to church tribunals, and guilty priests were sent on a "pious pilgrimage" while oaths of confidentiality were extracted from their victims.


In the US, 11,750 allegations of child sex abuse have so far featured in actions settled by archdioceses – in Los Angeles for $660m and in Boston for $100m. But some dioceses have gone into bankruptcy and some claimants want higher level accountability – two reasons to sue the pope in person. In 2005 a test case in Texas failed because the Vatican sought and obtained the intercession of President Bush, who agreed to claim sovereign (ie head of state) immunity on the pope's behalf. Bush lawyer John B Bellinger III certified that Pope Benedict the XVI was immune from suit "as the head of a foreign state".


....This claim could be challenged successfully in the UK and in the European Court of Human Rights. But in any event, head of state immunity provides no protection for the pope in the international criminal court...If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic, but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto authority then they fall within the temporal jurisdiction of the ICC – if that practice continued after July 2002, when the court was established....


...The Holy See may deserve respect for offering the prospect of redemption to sinners, but it must be clear that in law the pope does so as a spiritual adviser, and not as an immune sovereign.


www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/liberty...

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 8:09AM #2
REteach
Posts: 14,833

While I basically agree, the others don't have their own sovereign country either.  Still, it seems hard to argue both that you are head of state, and that you don't have any jurisdiction over your subjects. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 8:42AM #3
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,282

Personally, I think it's high time his status is removed.  There is no reason on Earth why he has to have head of state status.  No other religious leader gets that.  City-states are so ... so ... BC.  The pope lives in Italy.  The end.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 9:03AM #4
Palmtree0
Posts: 3,231

Do other Christians feel the Pope is claiming a special immunity unfairly denied to other religious faiths - including other Christian denoms?




These pieces of human debris, whom are accused of molesting little children, need to be granted a fair trial, and when found guilty, sentenced to be hung by their genitalia, under the pain-of-death. If there is any grace reserved for these perverts, then let 'em enjoy it in the afterlife!!

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 10:22AM #5
Kwinters
Posts: 22,168

Would people be in favor of bring the Pope before the International Criminal Court to face charges of systematic sexual abuse of children in many countries?


Should the institution that protected them and covered for them and allowed them the religious cover to abuse children again and again be held criminally responsible?


 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 11:10AM #6
Jenandew7
Posts: 13,315

Apr 5, 2010 -- 7:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


Do other Christians feel the Pope is claiming a special immunity unfairly denied to other religious faiths - including other Christian denoms?




Sad to say he is discrediting the office of Pope, the credibility of the Catholic Church and is a blight on the Christian faith.  I have never acknowledged the man as Pope and I never will.


(I'm not Catholic, so that is a bit neither here nor there, but I loved John Paul II)


A.


 

If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday. --Isaiah 58:10
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 11:30AM #7
Hoppy393
Posts: 2,756

Apr 5, 2010 -- 10:22AM, Kwinters wrote:


Would people be in favor of bring the Pope before the International Criminal Court to face charges of systematic sexual abuse of children in many countries?


Should the institution that protected them and covered for them and allowed them the religious cover to abuse children again and again be held criminally responsible?



I was listening to WGN's "Legally Speaking" last night, and although not experts in international criminal law, they discussed that it would be hard to make a charge of systemic abuse stick against him - that the lack of disclosure (when relocating a known/suspect abusive priest) is not quite enough to prove malicious intent, that he knew abuse would continue (ie:  he could claim the priests were repentant), etc.


Sure, I'd like him to take his licks for what he did, but considering that he would be difficult to convict, the media crucifixion fits the bill.  That is, until something else comes up.


Also, it's not just the head-of-state issue, it's the fact that there is a state at all.  The Vatican has provided sanctuary for criminals before (note:  I know this is not the norm), and I don't think the ICC has the power to 'arrest' him unless he leaves his state. 

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 1:55PM #8
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

What would removing the pope solve? The real criminals are the pedophile priests and the arch criminals are the Bishops who cover for them.


They need a trip to a veterinarian to get "fixed".

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 2:19PM #9
Brainscramble
Posts: 9,422

Apr 5, 2010 -- 7:37AM, Kwinters wrote:


Do other Christians feel the Pope is claiming a special immunity unfairly denied to other religious faiths - including other Christian denoms?


 


'...In legal actions against Catholic archdioceses in the US it has been alleged that the same conduct reflected Vatican policy as approved by Cardinal Ratzinger (as the pope then was) as late as November 2002. Sexual assaults were regarded as sins that were subject to church tribunals, and guilty priests were sent on a "pious pilgrimage" while oaths of confidentiality were extracted from their victims.


In the US, 11,750 allegations of child sex abuse have so far featured in actions settled by archdioceses – in Los Angeles for $660m and in Boston for $100m. But some dioceses have gone into bankruptcy and some claimants want higher level accountability – two reasons to sue the pope in person. In 2005 a test case in Texas failed because the Vatican sought and obtained the intercession of President Bush, who agreed to claim sovereign (ie head of state) immunity on the pope's behalf. Bush lawyer John B Bellinger III certified that Pope Benedict the XVI was immune from suit "as the head of a foreign state".


....This claim could be challenged successfully in the UK and in the European Court of Human Rights. But in any event, head of state immunity provides no protection for the pope in the international criminal court...If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic, but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto authority then they fall within the temporal jurisdiction of the ICC – if that practice continued after July 2002, when the court was established....


...The Holy See may deserve respect for offering the prospect of redemption to sinners, but it must be clear that in law the pope does so as a spiritual adviser, and not as an immune sovereign.


www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/liberty...





The pope should answer to the ICC.  The fact that he claims that he's being unfairly buttonholed is disturbing.  He should WANT to speak out, if he's not guilty!  But he knows he IS! 

I am interested in your thoughts.


Pam

Christian Witness of Jehovah, the God and Father of Christ and of us all.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2010 - 2:26PM #10
teilhard
Posts: 51,432

Apr 5, 2010 -- 10:22AM, Kwinters wrote:


Would people be in favor of bring the Pope before the International Criminal Court to face charges of systematic sexual abuse of children in many countries?


Should the institution that protected them and covered for them and allowed them the religious cover to abuse children again and again be held criminally responsible?


 



No ... I am NOT in Favor of conducting an Anti-Catholic "Witch-Hunt" ...

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