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Switch to Forum Live View Exhaustive study of nephesh/soul in the Hebrew Scriptures for Biblical usage defintitions.
3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 3:07PM #351
Posts: 14,082

FPD - You posted to my post:

NEWT:  You probably meant Ecclesiastes 12:17, not 12:1?   Psalms 104:29,30 also explains how  the spirit goes back to God who gave it.   And, remember, Psalms 146:4 shows that when the spirit goes out, the thoughts of the person "perish" - clearly showing the spirit has no thoughts, and the soul which has thoughts is now unconscious (asleep - Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11 {Lazarus was asleep in death}) - as in Ecclesiastes 9:5 - conscious of nothing at all.

FPD: Yes, I did mean 12:1.  Thank you.  Yes, the spirit returns to God after leaving the corpse and the corpse returns to the earth.  The passage in Ps. 146:4 has the word 'ESHTONOTH.  It has the idea of not fulfilling plans.  I think you're grossly misunderstanding the word.  It isn't that he is no longer capable of thinking, but that all of his plans and schemes are no longer being fulfilled because he has died. 


Would you believe 12:7???

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) . . .Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Ecclesiastes 3:18-20) . . .I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Psalm 104:29, 30) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust. 30 If you send out your spirit, they are created, And you renew the surface of the ground.

So, again, if spirit meant soul, how is it spirit is singular?   Don't all animals have unique and individual souls, including all  humans?   Yet spirit is singular in Ps. 104:29, and Eccl. says we all have but one spirit.

This includes the fact that the breath of life is the same for all animals and all humans.   Note that plants also have life (Hebrew chai; Greek zoe) but they do not have te same spirit nor are they souls.

So how is it their spirit (Psalms 104:29) becomes God's spirit (Psalms 104:30)?

And do you really think the breath of life (cp. Genesis 2:7) has to travel to God in heaven literally for God to bring them back to life in Ps. 104:29,30?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 3:16PM #352
Posts: 14,082

FPD - You posted to my post:

NEWT:  Do you believe the person (soul) Jesus died for our sins?   Or do you believe only Jesus' body (Gr, soma) died, but the soul (Greek psyche) did not die? We believe the person (soul) Jesus died for our sins (Isaiah 53:10,12).

FPD: Of course.  He experienced death.  What we do differ over was his identity.  You think he was the created Archangel.  I believe He was the Son of God.  


Archangel (chief messenger) = logos (chief spokesman).   You have already agreed to 'Christophany" in the case of Manoah saying he saw God when he knew it was Jehovah's angel - Judges 13:21,22 - so if Jesus was this angel, how could he be other than chief (arch) over all other angels?   And, btw, you are way off the subject!

And, of course, you already knew we believe Jesus is the Son of God!   So why do you deceptively imply we do not agree on this?   Perhaps because we don't agree on how Jesus became God's Son - see Colossians 1:13-15.

So you agree the person Jesus died - that he was no longer alive until he was resurrected?

Or do you believe only Jesus' body died?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 3:22PM #353
Posts: 4,719

Moulton and Milligan is a book that lists Koine Greek words from non-canonical ancient sources that gives us a sense of how the word was being used at the time the NT was written.  In this book is a very lengthy listening for the word PSEUKEE.  Here are some excerpts:

1) “Breath of life”  (Wunsch AF, p11:15).
2) “Life” (P Tebt I. 56:11).  “Please therefore in the first place to give thanks to the gods and secondly to save many lives [souls] by providing for their maintenance.”   A school master flogging a student, “…till his life [soul]—curse it—remain hanging on his lips” (Herodas III.3)
3) The soul as the seat of feelings, desires (Alexandrian Erotic Fragment 2nd cent. BC).  “He also persisted in vexing my soul about his slave Antilla” (Edd.).  A Christian letter of condolence in which the writer prays that it may be granted to mourners to sing with the departed souls in Paradise, “ (Edd. 6th cent. AD).  “My soul is tempest-tossed.”  A letter addressing a slave, “To the servant of my soul, be fresh and be valuable.”  
4) The word is very common in memorials.  A Christian tombstone is engraved with the name of the dead person in opposition to “soul” (cited by KF. C. Burkitt in JTS p585).  
5) Influence of soul.  Found in a complaint of breach of contract by a mill-hand, “Who changed her mind [soul] left the mill and departed, persuaded by her father.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 3:31PM #354
Posts: 14,082

FPD - You posted to my post:

NEWT: From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.  Most translations read "destroy" here - so if you lose your life you don't die FPD? 

FPD: "Destroy" means to no longer fulfill original design.  It is the same word used of "lost" sheep (John 15:6) and "broken" wine bottles (Mk. 2:22). 


As is often the case, you didn't answer my question:

Try actually quoting me in context instead of out of context:

Matthew 10:28

(ABP+)  AndG2532 fear notG3361 G5399 ofG575 the onesG3588 killingG615 theG3588 body,G4983 [5theG3588 1butG1161 6soulG5590 2notG3361 3being ableG1410 4to kill]!G615 But you fearG5399 G1161 ratherG3123 the oneG3588 being ableG1410 bothG2532 the soulG5590 andG2532 bodyG4983 to destroyG622 inG1722 Gehenna!G1067

(ABP-G+)  καιG2532 μη φοβεισθεG3361 G5399 αποG575 τωνG3588 αποκτεινοντωνG615 τοG3588 σωμαG4983 τηνG3588 δεG1161 ψυχηνG5590 μηG3361 δυναμενωνG1410 αποκτειναιG615 φοβηθητε δεG5399 G1161 μαλλονG3123 τονG3588 δυναμενονG1410 καιG2532 ψυχηνG5590 καιG2532 σωμαG4983 απολεσαιG622 ενG1722 γεεννηG1067

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Again I ask, if you lose your life - do you die?

You wanted me to consider these verses:

John 15:6
(KJV+)  If a man abide notG3362 G5100 G3306 inG1722 me,G1698 he is castG906 forthG1854 asG5613 a branch,G2814 andG2532 is withered;G3583 andG2532 men gatherG4863 them,G846 andG2532 castG906 them intoG1519 the fire,G4442 andG2532 they are burned.G2545

G622 is not used in this verse.   But what happens to a branch when it is burned?   Destroyed or tormented?

Mark 2:22

(ABP+)  AndG2532 no oneG3762 castsG906 [2wineG3631 1new]G3501 intoG1519 [2leather wine bagsG779 1old];G3820 otherwise,G1490 [4tearsG4486 1theG3588 3wineG3631 G3588 2new]G3501 theG3588 leather wine bags,G779 andG2532 theG3588 wineG3631 pours out,G1632 andG2532 theG3588 leather wine bagsG779 are destroyed;G622 butG235 [2wineG3631 1newG3501 4intoG1519 6leather wine bagsG779 5newG2537 3is to be put].G992

OK, so the verse doesn't say how the wine bags are destroyed.   The fact remains they are destroyed.   Also, we are not wine bags!

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 3:53PM #355
Posts: 14,082

FPD - I'm in blue:

Feb 12, 2015 -- 1:20PM, five_point_dad wrote:

NEWT: I must thank you for questioning my motives for starting this thread.   Of course, it was Acts 17:11, and also simply confirming the definitions of nephesh from actual Biblical usage.

FPD: Glad to be of help.

Well, we are both happy then!Smile

NEWT:  So, likewise, your questioning and even arguing has been somewhat of a nuisance on this thread - but your questioning about the definition of nephesh as body, which I knew was wrong, has led me to understand better Jesus ransom sacrifice - arguably one of the more important Bible teachings!

FPD: It is wrong.  I don’t define the word NEPHESH as “body,” but you’ll never stop saying that.  I don’t define the word “hands” as “person” either.  Yet, “hire hands” sometimes is used for people.

I've got to HAND it to you, FPD - you  have a knack for words!   Do we agree that "body" is not a definition of nephesh - but rather that people (souls) have bodies, but people (souls) are not bodies?

NEWT:  Yes, Jesus' death was the death of a body - but it was so much more than that FPD!   The person Jesus actually died for us!    What a sacrifice!   What love!

FPD:  I agree.  I don’t think that is a difference between us at all.

So you agree the person Jesus was dead when he died????  Or, perhaps you do not agree that death is the oppositie of life, and that the dead have lost their life - or, in other words, life has left them?

  The difference lies in who is Christ?  You believe He was nothing but a created person who was Michael the Archangel.  God could have literally made millions of Him.

Absolutely false.   There can only be one only-begotten Son of God.   Do you know what mono means in monogenes (Greek for only begotten)?   LIkewise, their can only be one firstborn Son of God.   And you are WAY off the subject!

  He was really nothing out of the ordinary.

That is what you believe?   Because it is certainly not what we (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe!

  I believe He is the Son of the Living God who is as eternal as the Father.  He “became” obedient to the Father, took upon Himself the form of a servant and went to Calvary to redeem us.

 Yes, me too - Jesus is as eternal as the Father - after he died and was resurrected.   God cannot die - Jesus died for our sins - do you  see this simple truth?

NEWT:  And, yes, Jesus surrendered his life (as a soul) as well - Jesus was no longer alive while he was dead!   Something so obvious to me yet I realize now that you do not believe this!!!!

FPD:  If he were “dead” and unconscious until his resurrection, how did he say of his body, “I will raise it up”? (Jn. 2:19).   If what you say is accurate, He wouldn’t have been able to do that.

More tangents FPD - I answered that on another thread - you forgot????   So how did Elisha raise the dead after he died?   Wasn't the Holy Spirit attached to his bones such that the dead person was raised back to life upon touching those bones?  Do you honestly think the Holy Spirit could not be programmed to heal or raise the dead?   What happenned when the woman touched Jesus garments?

Also, this was commanded by Jehovah - I quoted this verse when answering you on the other thread:

John 10:17,18
This is why the Father loves me,+ because I surrender my soul,+ in order that I may receive it again. 18 No man has taken* it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again.+ The commandment+ on this I received from my Father.”

And since this was by Jehovah's command, and by God's Holy Spirit, it is also stated in Scritpure that God resurrected Jesus:

Acts 2:24-28
But God resurrected+ him by loosing the pangs of death,+ because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.+ 25 For David says respecting him, ‘I had Jehovah* constantly before my eyes; because he is at my right hand that I may never be shaken.+ 26 On this account my heart became cheerful and my tongue rejoiced greatly. Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope;+ 27 because you will not leave my soul in Ha′des,* neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.+ 28 You have made life’s ways known to me, you will fill me with good cheer with your face.

  If he were a created being, and the Bible clearly says that He created all things and nothing created exists that He didn’t create, how did He make Himself before He was?  

Wrong FPD - I also explained this many time on other threads.   All is not absolute in that Scripture - which has nothing to do with the occurences of nephesh.  Jesus did not create Jesus and Jehovah.   Col. 1:15,16 is all other things besides Jesus and Jehovah. All is also not absolute in the context at Col. 1:23.

NEWT:  So, thank you again for your questioning things I would not have questioned - it has helped me increase my understanding of the sacrifice Jesus made for our sins!

FPD: As I said, always glad to be of help.  

Well, thank you again!  I really appreciate so much more how special our only holy day is!   What love Jesus showed in sacrificing himself for our sins!  (self = soul)

I know you wish to discuss these tangents further - so I hope you won't be offended as I am now going to stick to the occurrence list until I finish Exodus.   After I respond to Chiliast, that is.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 4:11PM #356
Posts: 14,082

Thanks for the info. on Greek psyche/soul.  Now that I know you are interested, I will highlight psyche in the LXX more fully in the occurrence list - note I did highlight in red some instances of psyche in LXX in above posts/occurrences of nephesh (Hebrew equivalent of Greek psyche).



“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2015 - 4:35PM #357
Posts: 14,082

OK, can't find Chiliast's post - so back to the occurrence list - this is where I left off:

Feb 11, 2015 -- 6:55PM, Newtonian wrote:

OK, continueing with the occurrence list - I left off here:

Feb 11, 2015 -- 3:49PM, Newtonian wrote:

The next occurrences are:

Exodus 15:9
30:12, 15

Leviticus 2:1

I will post briefly on these first - and wait for comments from other posters.

52.  (Exodus 15:9) . . .The enemy said, ‘I shall pursue! I shall overtake! I shall divide spoil! My soul will be filled with them! I shall draw my sword! My hand will drive them away!’

I'll let you all post what this means - or I will later.

53.  (Exodus 16:16) (NW ref) . . .This is the word that Jehovah has commanded, ‘Pick up some of it, each one in proportion to his eating. YOU are to take an omer measure for each individual according to the number of the souls that each of YOU has in his tent.’”

(Exodus 16:16) (NW)This is what Jehovah has commanded, ‘Each one should gather it according to how much he can eat. You are to take an omer measure for each individual according to the number of the people that each of you has in his tent.’”

This is definition #1 - nephesh/souls = people

54.  (Exodus 21:23)(NW ref) . . .But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul,

(Exodus 21:23) (NW) But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,

So, if the unborn child's soul had a fatal injury, the punishment would be that for murder- the death of the offender's soul - life for life.

This shows abortion is murder and it also shows the unborn child is already a human soul, and it also shows the soul can and does die.

to be continued.

 55. (Exodus 21:30) [NW] If a ransom is imposed on him, he must give as the redemption price for his life all that may be imposed on him.

(Exodus 21:30) [NW ref]. . .If a ransom should be imposed upon him, then he must give the redemption price for his soul according to all that may be imposed upon him. . .

Most translations render nephesh as "life" here, and ABP renders the Greek psyche as "life" also though Brenton (above) renders psyche as "soul."

Soul is more accurate, since one might think Hebrew chai/life is in the text - though NW clarifies by footnoting the reading "soul."

This would be definition #2 but also definiton #1 - it should be noted that in some verses more than one definition fits the context.    In this case the person is redeemed, and the person's life is redeemed - so both definitions fit the context.   I.e. saving the person's life is saving the person as well.

Next occurrences:

Exodus 23:9
30:12, 15

Leviticus 2:1

56.(Exodus 23:9) 9 “And you must not oppress an alien resident, as YOU yourselves have known the soul of the alien resident, because YOU became alien residents in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 23:9

(ABP+)  AndG2532 a foreignerG4339 you shall notG3756 maltreat,G2559 nor in any wayG3761 G3361 afflict.G2346 For youG1473 G1063 knowG1492 theG3588 soulG5590 of theG3588 foreigner,G4339 for you yourselvesG1473 G1063 were foreignersG4339 G1510.7.5 inG1722 the landG1093 of Egypt.G*

(ABP-G+)  καιG2532 προσηλυτονG4339 ουG3756 κακωσετεG2559 ουδε μηG3761 G3361 θλιψετεG2346 υμεις γαρG1473 G1063 οιδατεG1492 τηνG3588 ψυχηνG5590 τουG3588 προσηλυτουG4339 αυτοι γαρG1473 G1063 προσηλυτοι ητεG4339 G1510.7.5 ενG1722 γηG1093 ΑιγυπτουG*

OK, FPD - Greek psychen means what here?  

(YLT)  `And a sojourner thou dost not oppress, and ye--ye have known the soul of the sojourner, for sojourners ye have been in the land of Egypt.

New American Standard Bible
"You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger, for ye know the state of the soul of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

NW footnote:

Or “know the life (soul) of a foreigner.”

NW ref. footnote on "soul" (in the main text):

Or, “the state of existence.” Heb., ne′phesh; Gr., psy·khen′.

Similar to the Jubilee Bible - interesting.

This is an unusual definition added, though "life as a soul" is definition #2 and fits in this context as well.

So, FPD - what does Greek psychen mean here in your opinion?

to be continued

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2 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2015 - 2:58PM #358
Posts: 14,082

As the site will become read only shortly I bumped this thread - not sure where I will continue the study yet.

But remember the link in OP, the study has also been done by others - the link again:

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