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5 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2009 - 4:32PM #71
world citizen
Posts: 5,466

rocket ~


Now it's my turn to say "Excuse me," but didn't you give certain prophesies in your previous posts and cite them as being from the Tanakh?  That only by fulfillment of each of them could One be recognized as the Lord of Hosts?  Btw, please note that I do distinguish between the Tanakh and the entire Torah.  Smile

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2009 - 5:18PM #72
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,781

World


I did and I did not. I merely pointed out to those areas the uninformed and misguided Christians use as instances by which the coming of the fictional dead guy Jesus was prophesied and demonstrated that those "prophecies" were not fulfilled.


If the Christians want to view the Torah as a book of prophecies they could at least make sure their fictional boygod meets their own criteria.


He doesn't. Not even close.


There is only Torah - and Torah comprises more than just the Hebrew Bible.


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2009 - 7:08PM #73
Idenitycrisis
Posts: 351

boygod, that's a new one for me RJS! Laughing

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2009 - 9:40PM #74
world citizen
Posts: 5,466

... they could at least make sure their fictional boygod meets their own criteria.


I don't believe that Jesus was a "fictional" character but I do think that this remark was uncalled for.  If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague, or the courtesy to call the Christian prophet by name as you did in an earlier sentence.


Returning to the so-called prophesies that you did/did not (?) cite, while I agree that Jesus didn't fulfil ALL prophesies found in the Tanakh (and there are many), he did fulfil a number of them.  I agree with you that Jesus didn't fulfil those of the "end-time" Lord of Hosts or Shepherd of mankind.  One such prophecy toward Jesus was Moses' own words:  "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken" (Deut. 18:15).  Are you saying that this isn't prophetic?



 

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 10:00AM #75
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,781

World


The purpose of this forum is to discuss the fictional sect known as "Messianic Judaism". This sect was made up by Christian Missionaries to trick Jews into abandoning their faith, their people, their history, their traditions and G-d. It is a dishonest movement, created by dishonest people.


If anyone should be insulted it is Jews. The whole idea of "Messianic Judaism" is an insult to the Jewish people. 


I am sorry if it offends you to hear that your fictional boygod isn't the messiah and would not qualify even if he were not a complete fiction.


I make no apologies for telling the bare, raw truth about the Jesus who wasn't and didn't and couldn't on this forum because Christians on this forum have but one disgusting aim - to fool Jews into thinking that their boygod has anything to do with Judaism.  


As I have stated many times before, evangelisim is cruel and evil. Christianity has absolutely nothing to offers Jews. I doubt it has much to offer any other non-Christians.


Thank you


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 4:19PM #76
world citizen
Posts: 5,466

The purpose of this forum is to discuss the fictional sect known as "Messianic Judaism".

If Messianic Judaisim exists, then it can't be called fiction because it is a fact.  It would be more truthful, however, if they just committed fully to their belief in Christ and self-identified themselves as Christians.


This sect was made up by Christian Missionaries to trick Jews into abandoning their faith, their people, their history, their traditions and G-d. It is a dishonest movement, created by dishonest people.

Christian missionaries didn't exist when Jews became the first who believed themselves to be Messianic Jews, later known as Christians (followers of the Christ).  You perceive them as abandoning their faith, etc., but it appears to be that it was their faith, their history, and even their prophet Moses (Deut. 18:15) that were instrumental in their decision-making.  It doesn't seem that they have abandoned their people either, or they wouldn't cling to the word "Judaism" in their self-description but would make a clean break and fully embrace the Christian moniker.



The whole idea of "Messianic Judaism" is an insult to the Jewish people.

That's understandable to a degree.  They either are or are not religiously Jewish but isn't being Jewish, unlike with other religions, also an ethnicity that one can't or shouldn't deny?  Isn't this a conundrum for them?


I am sorry if it offends you to hear that your fictional boygod isn't the messiah and would not qualify even if he were not a complete fiction.

It doesn't seem that you've actually read/comprehended my posts or you wouldn't have stated this, but you do seem to go out of your way to be rude.  While I agreed with you that Jesus wasn't THE Messiah ben David or Lord of Hosts in fulfillment of ALL prophecy, I do believe He was "anointed" by God as the next major prophet foretold by Moses.  I disagree with you fully that the person of Jesus is "complete fiction," especially given accounts by a Jewish citizen of Rome and historian under Emperor Vespasian:


(continued)

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 4:38PM #77
world citizen
Posts: 5,466

(continued)


"At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out."
(~ Titus Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 18.63-64)

"[The Roman governor] Festus was now dead, and [his successor] Albinus was still upon the road. So [the high priest] Ananus assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of that Jesus who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some of his companions. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.
(~ Titus Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 20.200)


I make no apologies for telling the bare, raw truth about the Jesus who wasn't and didn't and couldn't ...


The bare, raw truth seems more to be that Jesus was and did and could or there wouldn't be more than two billion Christians in the world.  Do you sincerely believe that the prophets of God ended with Malachi, or perhaps you don't feel that God followed through on His promise that another would come "like unto" Moses?  Does God lie?  How many more millenia are the Jews to wait before concluding this as a possibility because no One meeting their criteria yet seemed on the horizon (not investigating meanwhile any claims to the contrary)?


Christianity has absolutely nothing to offers Jews. I doubt it has much to offer any other non-Christians.

Perhaps it doesn't to the majority but it would seem that God should be the judge of what is in a man's heart - not his fellow man.  No one should try to direct or dictate another human being's chosen path to God and that includes evangelicals or other Jews.  Baha'is view all religions as following one continuing Book, with the appearance of each new holy book being, in effect, another chapter in the unfolding of God's plan for humanity.  With the appearance of the Lord of Hosts (given different names in different Holy Texts), eventually each religion will come to understand its own connection to the other chapters/books/religions, and this realization will set us on a course toward the promised peace with a common foundation.


Shalom & Namaste, WC

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 6:29PM #78
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,781

World





If Messianic Judaism exists, then it can't be called fiction because it is a fact.  It would be more truthful, however, if they just committed fully to their belief in Christ and self-identified themselves as Christians.”





But it DOES NOT EXIST as a separate religious group. It was “established” by and for Christian missionaries for the sole purpose of leading Jews astray.




Christian missionaries didn't exist when Jews became the first who believed themselves to be Messianic Jews, later known as Christians (followers of the Christ). 





Sorry but the Messianic Judaism we are speaking of is of fairly recent vintage. Going back to the establishment of the accursed “Jews for Judaism” The folks running the Messianic Judaism groups today have nothing to do with the early followers of your fictional dead guy. Most of the early Christians were not Jews and did not follow Judaism. Those who were Jewish, were conveniently killed off by the gentile Christians for their heresy in denying that Jesus is/was G-d and for insisting that Jesus followers remain true to Jewish teachings and practices.





They either are or are not religiously Jewish but isn't being Jewish, unlike with other religions, also an ethnicity that one can't or shouldn't deny?  Isn't this a conundrum for them?


Being Jewish is more than a statement beliefs. We do not have a catechism. However, when a Jew converts to another religion – such as Christianity – he cuts himself off from his heritage and his people and is no longer a member of the Jewish people. Become a Christian and you stop being Jewish.


The bare, raw truth seems more to be that Jesus was and did and could or there wouldn't be more than two billion Christians in the world.  Do you sincerely believe that the prophets of God ended with Malachi, or perhaps you don't feel that God followed through on His promise that another would come "like unto" Moses? 





The bare raw truth is that Jesus is a fiction. If you bother to read your own Gospels you will see that your boy is a composite of at least 4 different people, who lived very different lives and died very different deaths.  There is no contemporary historical evidence that he ever existed.


Do you think prophesy (the silly way you understand it – not the Jewish understanding of prophesy)  ended with your dead boy? Why don't you accept the Book of Mormon? There are millions of Mormons – doesn't that make the The Church of Jesus Christ and Later Day Saints the right one? Do you even listen to yourself?


And really. Christianity offers a Jew nothing. What do you think it offers? Forgiveness for sins? We get that just by asking – always have. Eternal life in some supposed heaven? We get that. So do you if you manage to follow the Noahide laws. (Please note: that does mean giving up Stone Crabs – because
Stone Crab claws are ripped off of the Crab and the Crab tossed back into the sea. It is forbidden to all men to eat meat ripped from a live animal) A personal relationship with the Divine? We got that – and with no intermediaries to tell us what it should be.





Christianity is a dead end for Jews. It is a denial of G-d and the Jewish people. For us Christianity is idolatry. [It isn't for you, since you can believe 3 is 1 and that praying to a dead man as the deity is OK – see how easy you have it! ]


So, for you and all evangelists, I wish the same that you and evangelists in general wish for me and all Jews:


May your children be lured away from their family, cut off from their heritage, and be forever estranged from the religion of their birth, their parents, their siblings, their friends and relations and from he who made heaven and earth. 


That is what all evangelists deserve.  Christian evangelists deserve to reap what they sow.


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 5:29PM #79
world citizen
Posts: 5,466

But it DOES NOT EXIST as a separate religious group. It was “established” by and for Christian missionaries for the sole purpose of leading Jews astray.

You might believe this in your heart, rocket, but hundreds of MJ congregations headed by rabbis around the world, numerous MJ websites, and the fact that it is recognized sufficiently to have its own discussion board here at Beliefnet DOES establish it as a factual separate religious entity.

Most of the early Christians were not Jews and did not follow Judaism.

ALL of the original followers of Jesus in Palestine had followed Judaism, and it was considered to be a sect of Judaism for almost the entire first century.  They were known as Nazarenes (ie., messianic Jews).  The word Christian wasn't even used until the gentiles of Antioch were first given that name by the Romans.


Those who were Jewish, were conveniently killed off by the gentile Christians for their heresy in denying that Jesus is/was G-d and for insisting that Jesus followers remain true to Jewish teachings and practices.

I'm aware that the gentile Christians distanced themselves from the Nazarenes because of this, but unfamiliar with accounts of Nazarene genocide.  Can you please provide a scholarly resource for that bit of history?

... when a Jew converts to another religion – such as Christianity – he cuts himself off from his heritage and his people and is no longer a member of the Jewish people. Become a Christian and you stop being Jewish.

It's obvious that when someone changes their religion, they stop being of the first religion but how does one lose his heritage?  Regardless of my chosen faith my heritage remains.  It is what it is and never leaves me.


... There is no contemporary historical evidence that he [Christ] ever existed.

This could also be said of Abraham, Noah, et al., but the contemporary evidence is that Judaism has existed for millennia.  It didn't arise out of thin air.  The same can be said of the Christ and Christianity.  The contemporary evidence is that two billion plus people follow Christianity, a belief system that didn't arise out of thin air.

Do you think prophesy (the silly way you understand it – not the Jewish understanding of prophesy)  ended with your dead boy?

I absolutely do not.  Btw, it would be appreciated if you'd stop with the insipid ad hom.


Christianity offers a Jew nothing. What do you think it offers? Forgiveness for sins? We get that just by asking – always have. Eternal life in some supposed heaven? We get that. So do you if you manage to follow the Noahide laws. ...  A personal relationship with the Divine? We got that – and with no intermediaries to tell us what it should be.

Does this mean you have discarded Abraham, Moses, and/or David who were the inter-mediaries first telling you what and how it should be?

For us Christianity is idolatry. [It isn't for you, since you can believe 3 is 1 and that praying to a dead man as the deity is OK – see how easy you have it!]

Perhaps for the fourth time I'll try to bring it to your attention, albeit more succinctly this time since you don't seem to read (comprehend?) my posts - I'm not a Christian.  The Bible is not my sacred text.  I am not an evangelical.  I have no vested interest in this discussion other than to try to understand your vehemence.

May your children be lured away from their family, cut off from their heritage, and be forever estranged from the religion of their birth, their parents, their siblings, their friends and relations and from he who made heaven and earth.

That is pathetically sad ...  I found a new belief many years ago.  I wasn't disengaged from my parents, family, or my friends.  I have one child who isn't the same religion as siblings or me but still very much an integral member of our family.  Our singular heritage is there for each to cherish.  Is this really how Jews treat each other?  I must wonder about that because the formerly Jewish woman who introduced me to the Baha'i Faith continued to hold seder in her home and her verrrrry Jewish husband and mother hadn't abandoned her.

I have to wonder how someone feels they can dictate to another soul what path MUST be walked toward the Creator.  One shouldn't be judged by another mortal being in matters of faith.  There is only one Judge of what is in the heart.


Shalom, WC

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 09, 2009 - 6:18PM #80
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,781

You might believe this in your heart, rocket, but hundreds of MJ congregations headed by rabbis around the world, numerous MJ websites, and the fact that it is recognized sufficiently to have its own discussion board here at Beliefnet DOES establish it as a factual separate religious entity.


There is not a single Rabbi who leads a MJ congregation. Please find me one. You can't because if an ordained  Rabbi with smicha were to convert to Christianity he would cease to be a Rabbi. There are lots of Christian ministers who decide to call themselves Rabbis who pretend to lead pretend MJ congregations made up of thier fellow baptists but they are not Rabbis.


Please see River's comments regarding why we have an MJ discusion board

Can you please provide a scholarly resource for that bit of history?


Just about any College Level history of the Christian Church will tell you how and why the Christians killed off those who disagreed with them.  Please pay close attention when you get to the Council of Nicea.

It's obvious that when someone changes their religion, they stop being of the first religion but how does one lose his heritage?  Regardless of my chosen faith my heritage remains.  It is what it is and never leaves me.


One loses one's heritage when one denies it and its validity. By converting to Christianity one does just that. If you were a Christian before you became Baha'i your Christian heritage was lost upon your conversion. You stopped being “of the body of Christ.” If your ancestry was Irish, that would not change since you did not reject the Irish. Since Judaism is both a people and a faith, when you convert you reject both, thus losing your heritage.


This could also be said of Abraham, Noah, et al., but the contemporary evidence is that Judaism has existed for millennia.  It didn't arise out of thin air.  The same can be said of the Christ and Christianity.  The contemporary evidence is that two billion plus people follow Christianity, a belief system that didn't arise out of thin air.


Christianity did not rise out of thin air, it is a logical progression from the Pagan religions it arose from and which it is part of. I hope you enjoy the upcoming Saturnalia fesitval we call Xmas, the return of Osiris we call Easter, etc...

I absolutely do not.  Btw, it would be appreciated if you'd stop with the insipid ad hom.


It is not my fault that you persist in thinking of the Biblical Prophets as jumped up fortune tellers. It is a silly idea. While it may be a good Christian idea it is not a Jewish one.


Does this mean you have discarded Abraham, Moses, and/or David who were the inter-mediaries first telling you what and how it should be?


This shows why you know nothing. Abraham, Moses, David were not intermediaries.  They do not stand between Jews and the deity.  Jews do not pray through others or need  others to intervene with the deity on our behalf. Abraham, Moses, David are not Saints, they are not demi-gods, they are part of the folk history of the people Israel. It doesn't even matter if they did or did not actually exist. It also doesn't matter of G-d exits or not, but that is a discussion for another time.


Perhaps for the fourth time I'll try to bring it to your attention, albeit more succinctly this time since you don't seem to read (comprehend?) my posts - I'm not a Christian.  The Bible is not my sacred text.  I am not an evangelical.  I have no vested interest in this discussion other than to try to understand your vehemence.


You say you are Baha'i but you act and talk like a Christian missionary. If you cannot understand why a Jew would object to Christians and others insisting that Jews interpret Jewish texts in the manner they have been perverted by Christians and further insisting that Jews accept that Christianity has superseded Judaism and/or  that it is the culmination of Judaism, then I see no hope for you.

That is pathetically sad ...  I found a new belief many years ago.  I wasn't disengaged from my parents, family, or my friends.  I have one child who isn't the same religion as siblings or me but still very much an integral member of our family.  Our singular heritage is there for each to cherish.  Is this really how Jews treat each other?  I must wonder about that because the formerly Jewish woman who introduced me to the Baha'i Faith continued to hold seder in her home and her verrrrry Jewish husband and mother hadn't abandoned her.


I assume you found another faith because you went to look for it and that you were not “encouraged” to join by recruiters otherwise known as missionaries. Sadly, even if you do not understand it and assuming your family had a strong attachment to another religion, you cut yourself off from your parents, family and friends, even if they continued to associate with you  for the sake of familial ties. I would agree that your failure to grasp this is pathetically sad.


The woman you refer to may not have been abandoned by her husband and mother but she had surely abandoned them. She severed her connection with the people of Israel.  While her assumed Jewish husband could have a Passover Seder in his house, her attendance at such would be solely as a guest and not a participant for had she been in Egypt she would not have been redeemed out of slavery.


I have to wonder how someone feels they can dictate to another soul what path MUST be walked toward the Creator. 


Putting aside the pseudo spiritual verbiage contained in your statement, I would agree. So why are you trying to do just that. That is exactly what you and the Christian missionaries try to do. Please stop.


One shouldn't be judged by another mortal being in matters of faith. 


Why the heck not?  But if you believe that, why do you and the Christian missionaries persist in doing just that?


There is only one Judge of what is in the heart.


And that would be who exactly? You?


 

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