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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 6:51AM #51
river8101
Posts: 5,564

Here are the passages from a Jewish Scriptures.   (Your verses don't answer Ahab's discussion with Isaiah.  In the Hebrew Scriptures a few verses before, Ahab desperate, and frightened pleads to God for help because the Assyrians were about to invade Israel. Isaiah calms him, and tells him that the people will be saved, and he tells him how.   Not to worry.  Note the differences in tenses.  He is talking to Ahab then, at the time of Ahab's greatest fear, not something that will ease his fear 700 years in the future.  What sense would that make?  Christians pick out verses and take them out of context.   Isaiah says to Ahab:


"For a child is born unto us,
A son has been given unto us
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And his name is called
Pele-joez-el-gibbor
Abi-ad-sar-shalom.
(A wonderful is counsel is God the Mighty
The Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.)
That the government may be increased
And of peace no end.
Upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom
To establish it, and to uphold it. 
Through justice and through righteousness
From henceforth even forever
The seal of the Lord of hosts doth perform this.


(Biblical Hebrew language has only two tenses, perfect and imperfect.)  Greek has 6 tenses, and used them whenvever neccessay. 


The Greek Translation changes the words to the future tense.


Isaiah 9:6,7- For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given and
the goverment shall be upon His shoulders, and His name shall be
called- Pelez Yo'ets(wonderful counselor), El Gibor(mighy G-d) Avi
Ad (everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace)
Of the increase of HIS government there shall be no
End  He will reign on Davids' throne and over his kingdom 


(He never did)


(note the Christian version is written in the future tense)


“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 7:12AM #52
river8101
Posts: 5,564

Christian missionaries (who believe they understand our Bible better than we do.)  argue that the name "A wonderful counselor is the mighty G-d, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace"  refers to Jesus, whom they allege combined human and divine qualities.  They mistakenly believe that such a name can only be applied to G-d Himself.  Moreover, the Christians incorrectly translate the verbs in verse 5 in the future tense, instead of the past, as the Hebrew original reads.  The Christian missionaries render verse 5 as:  "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, etc. 


Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 5:3, 14; 8:3)  In the verse under study, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah.  The words of this name form a sentence expressive of G-d's greatness which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime.  It is to Hezekiah that Isaiah refers in the  passages (Isaiah 9:5-6.)  “Hezekiah to Isaiah: “Good is the word of the Lord which have spoken” He said moreover:  “If there shall be peace and security in my days.” (Isaiah 39:8) 

The fulfillment of the above-stated declaration is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah’s glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23) Archeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom.  This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement “that the government may be increased.”   (The tale of the "lost tribes of Israel" is, therefore a tale.) The invaded tribes fled south.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 7:31AM #53
river8101
Posts: 5,564

The Davidic dynasty, through the reforms of Hezekiah was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that G-d would accept over his people. Hezekiah cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars and reestablished pure monotheistic c religion.  In the long run Hezekiah’s achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people.  Thus, G-d through Isaiah bestows upon Hezekiah this name, which honors the king by proclaiming the great things G-d will do for him, and, through him for the people of Israel. 

The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah’s words.  A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction  (Mat21:19-21;   Mark 11:14, 20-23;   A mighty G-d does not take orders from anyone (Luke 2:51, Hebrews 5:8; for no one is greater than he is (Mat 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28).  Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Mat 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matt 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30.)  He who is called the son of G-d the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called the everlasting Father.  One cannot play simultaneously  the role of the son and the Father; it is obviously self-contradiction.  He who advocates family strife (Mat 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace.



“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 9:26AM #54
river8101
Posts: 5,564

Another thing,  evangelicals see special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 3:34PM #55
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

Dec 4, 2009 -- 5:56AM, river8101 wrote:


Hezkeiah did all the things that Isaiah prophecied.  Jesus did none.  Regardless of the names they were called either by the people or by Isaiah,  it was Ahab's son, Hezekiah that Isaiah predicted would save them from the invading armies and save the country then,  not someone 700 years in the future.  Jesus didn't do anything to save Israel, except metaphorically, that is in the hereafter in Christian beliefs.  Isaiah is talking to Ahab about the here and now, not about 7 centuries in the future when Jesus supposedly came along.   But you read it as you wish, and so will we. 


As to Jesus rising from the dead and other things you mentioned, those are NT stories, which sound remarkably the same as many Greek pagan religious myths (if you've read them) The NT was completely written in the language of the Greeks, not the Hebrews.  The story of Jesus was written by pagans not by Jews.  Not one iota of the NT has ever been found in the country of Israel or the city of Judaea, and not for want of trying. Confirmation of the Jesus story has been searched to death but not one iota of Hebrew script or the story of Jesus has ever been found there, though the NT gospels say the story of Jesus and the apostles happened in Israel.  As to Mary and the virgin story, no proof, just another Greek story.  They had lots of gods that were begotten of virgins and gods who grew up, performed miracles were killed or tested, rose from the dead, and became gods.  A familiar Greek tale, which is why they wrote Jesus the same way.




 


River why is it you have no biblical proof to your twisting Hezekiah into an idol who died ?


 


Your argument has no basis in the scriptures.


Why not speak english and make sense this ahas obviously been mangled to deny the truth.


Your perversion of the text reads???


"And his name is called
Pele-joez-el-gibbor
Abi-ad-sar-shalom.
(A wonderful is counsel is God the Mighty
The Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace)


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 3:44PM #56
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

Jesus rose from the dead his blood is the equivalent of the same blood shed by the Lamb of God and painted on the door posts of the Israelites in Egypt.


 


 


 


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 4:09PM #57
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

 


River quoted: and believes that the dead Hezekiah whose kingdom is at an end, didn't know everlasting peace was the same as the Prophet Isaiah prophecied about.


"For a child is born unto us,
A son has been given unto us
And the government shall be upon his shoulder
And his name is called
Pele-joez-el-gibbor
Abi-ad-sar-shalom.



(A wonderful is counsel is God the Mighty
The Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.) 


 


So what is his name?


Your um spin doesn't name him it just says something about counsel. Not a name.


And his name is called



That the government may be increased
And of peace no end.
Upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom
To establish it, and to uphold it. 
Through justice and through righteousness
From henceforth even forever
The seal of the Lord of hosts doth perform this..


 


Even using your own text.


Your argument is dead with Hezekiah.. not everlasting not, not peace with no end, obviously according to your spin false would be the prophecy of Isaiah. This is the problem with "judaism" that calls itself Jewish.. It contradict the prophet Isaiah and ends up perverting according to the TEN commandments the rule of Hezekiah into an idol.


 


Your argument is false.


 


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 4:13PM #58
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

Pele-joez-el-gibbor
Abi-ad-sar-shalom.



(A wonderful is counsel is God the Mighty
The Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.) 


 


 


 


So what is his name?


 


This is the question that doesn't go away.


 


Obviously the greeks got it right.


 


"his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 4:41PM #59
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,564

Andrew


Everyone was called the prince of peace. Really. It is true. Just rulers were called all those nice things. Lavish praise is sort of a cultural thing. What you read ( and read out of context) does not mean what you think it does. There have been language and cultural changes which make some things appear differently today than they were understood at the time. To understand this better you need to watch some old movies where some poor benighted Arab beggar is asking for a favor from some puffed up British Colonel.


Oh yes, and we Jews don't call the Deity by name. We only use praise words, like Almighty Lord, etc...

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 4:44PM #60
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,564

Andrew


Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?


The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".


First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)


He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)


To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.


He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)


The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!


He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)


Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?


He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)


At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!


He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)


Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?


 He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)


The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.


He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)


there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.


All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:


And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.


If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.


Certainly NOT Jesus.

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