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5 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2009 - 5:03PM #21
Esdraelon
Posts: 5,236

Did Jesus have compassion on the money-lenders at the Temple?


I believe He would have said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars, and to God the things that are Gods."


Jesus also knew that John the Baptist was in prison shortly to have his head cut off, did he go protesting to the Roman authorities and ask for compassion?

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2009 - 5:12PM #22
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922

Aug 20, 2009 -- 5:03PM, Esdraelon wrote:


Did Jesus have compassion on the money-lenders at the Temple?


I believe He would have said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars, and to God the things that are Gods."


Jesus also knew that John the Baptist was in prison shortly to have his head cut off, did he go protesting to the Roman authorities and ask for compassion?




I don't see how the money changers is relevant to the issue of having compassion. 


As for the Caesar comment, that had to do with the Jewish restrictions on images and the payment of taxes.


Do you know that Jesus didn't protest to the Roman authorities?


 


So what, exactly, is Jesus depicted as teaching?  What should Christians consider the instructions of their god?


 


"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy" (Matthew 5:7)


 


Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. (Matthew 18:21-22)


 


But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:13)

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2009 - 5:35PM #23
Esdraelon
Posts: 5,236

 
I don’t see how the money changers is relevant to the issue of having compassion. The inference was that Christ exhibited anger as well as compassion.

As for the Caesar comment, that had to do with the Jewish restrictions on images and the payment of taxes. T
he inference was to respect the decisions of the government.

Do you know that Jesus didn’t protest to the Roman authorities?  Do you? There is nothing written that he did?

 So what, exactly, is Jesus depicted as teaching?  What should Christians consider the instructions of their god? 
In each of the verses you quote, Christ is speaking of ‘individual’. For the most part, Jesus is concerned with Individual forgiveness, salvation.

It should be noted that many Christians whose relatives were in the plane have forgiven the perpetrators.  Out of the sense of forgiveness. Personally, if the man has 3 months to live, there is nothing to be gained by keeping him in prison out of a sense of vengeance. By releasing him, the Scottish authorities showed those who would perpetuate such that they have a higher humanity than they.

I don’t know what Jesus would do about mass murderers, per se, which I was referring to originally, but in this case I believe He certainly would exhort release.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2009 - 6:03PM #24
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922


 
I don’t see how the money changers is relevant to the issue of having compassion. The inference was that Christ exhibited anger as well as compassion.


That's probably true, but it doesn't negate his teachings on mercy, nor his interference with the execution of the alleged adulteresshe inference was to respect the decisions of the government.



As for the Caesar comment, that had to do with the Jewish restrictions on images and the payment of taxes. T


Not necessarily.  The comment is deeply ambivalent. 


The real issue at that time was the payment of taxes, there were often tax rebellions.  There was a tax revolt at the time of the census taken in 6 CE, and the trial itself was specifically about the payment of tax - not governmental decisions:


Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king." Luke 23: 1-4. 


Another important issue would have been blasphemy.  After all, why did the moneychangers even exist?  To allow pilgrams to exchange blasphemous coins which were used all over the Roman empire (e.g. with images - forbidden by the Law and with inscriptions such as 'Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus' which was also blasphemous.'


 


Therefore the ambiguous comment of 'render unto Caesar' can't be pinpointed to a specific interpretation.



Do you know that Jesus didn’t protest to the Roman authorities?  Do you? There is nothing written that he did?

 So what, exactly, is Jesus depicted as teaching?  What should Christians consider the instructions of their god? 
In each of the verses you quote, Christ is speaking of ‘individual’. For the most part, Jesus is concerned with Individual forgiveness, salvation.


KW - not individuals alone: 'But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)




It should be noted that many Christians whose relatives were in the plane have forgiven the perpetrators.  Out of the sense of forgiveness. Personally, if the man has 3 months to live, there is nothing to be gained by keeping him in prison out of a sense of vengeance. By releasing him, the Scottish authorities showed those who would perpetuate such that they have a higher humanity than they.

I don’t know what Jesus would do about mass murderers, per se, which I was referring to originally, but in this case I believe He certainly would exhort release.


 


-- Then we're in agreement.  That is what I think he would have done as well, based on the depictions of him.


It takes more to show mercy than to not show mercy.


That is why is it a higher moral calling.  If it were easy it wouldn't need to be taught.


:-)


 

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 20, 2009 - 6:42PM #25
Esdraelon
Posts: 5,236

I would say that we are.  


Absolutely, It takes more to show mercy than to not show mercy.

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 12:43AM #26
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,051

Aug 20, 2009 -- 4:09PM, lulu2 wrote:


To forgive someone, implies a wrong doing. God forgives us all. That forgiveness lives in the Heart of God. The question is, if that man has forgiven himself and has acknowledged his wrong doing.. Then man can rise-up to meet Gods forgiveness.  




No no no. We don't "rise up to meet God", that's backwards. God comes down, God always comes down.


-Jon

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 12:45AM #27
Xristocharis
Posts: 5,051

Aug 20, 2009 -- 5:03PM, Esdraelon wrote:


Did Jesus have compassion on the money-lenders at the Temple?


I believe He would have said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars, and to God the things that are Gods."


Jesus also knew that John the Baptist was in prison shortly to have his head cut off, did he go protesting to the Roman authorities and ask for compassion?




Christ does say, "I was in prison and you visited/did not visit me..."


-Jon

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." - Dom Hélder Câmara
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 5:24AM #28
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

It was sealed with a handshake during the Vanity Blair Tour in 2007 ...



In Libya, the Premier met the country's bloodstained dictator Colonel Muammar


Gaddafi in a Bedouin tent at a military compound in the desert at Sirte, about 150 miles south east of Tripoli.


The PM travelled there aboard Gaddafi's luxurious private plane. As he descended the steps of the aircraft on to a red carpet, he was mobbed by photographers and a military band played an out-of-tune rendition of God Save the Queen.


Mr Blair's 20-car convoy then snaked across scrubland to the site of the makeshift rendezvous, where the two men sat on ornate gilded chairs and chatted on first-name terms.


Mr Blair praised Gaddafi for becoming a crucial ally in the fight against terrorism [guffaw!!!] - and urged Iran to follow his lead and come in from the cold.


He said Libya, a former pariah state, has provided "extremely valuable" information to help track down extremists plotting carnage in the UK.


Mr Blair also applauded Gaddafi - who gave the order that condemned 270 innocent people to death in the 1988 Lockerbie bombing - for dismantling his weapons of mass destruction.


It is the first time he has met the dictator since a meeting in 2004, arranged after the former godfather of world terrorism had finally accepted blame for the airline bombing and paid £2.7billion compensation to victims.


Mr Blair said: "The relationship with Libya has been completely transformed."


Hypocrisy galore!!!


MdS

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 11:53AM #29
Kwinters
Posts: 21,922

Migel,


 


This was a decision made by the Scottish government, so I'm unsure as to why you'd be posting a photo of Tony Blair......

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2009 - 12:20PM #30
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Aug 21, 2009 -- 11:53AM, Kwinters wrote:

This was a decision made by the Scottish government, so I'm unsure as to why you'd be posting a photo of Tony Blair...


Sure! And it is a well known fact that Scotland has just reached full independence from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Wink


MdS


 

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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