Post Reply
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
Switch to Forum Live View The New Testament is Gnostic and Gnosticism claims all Christians.
1 year ago  ::  May 14, 2013 - 6:02PM #11
simonzur
Posts: 3,660

Jun 24, 2012 -- 9:43AM, miknik5 wrote:

Jul 21, 2009 -- 11:29PM, Xianmyst wrote:


Where is CHRIST in all this?  Who is the ONE who opens the mind to all this?  Who is the ONE who came to show/teach/reveal THE FATHER and had all authority to do so because HE came forth from GOD and is the GLORY OF GOD? 


The HIDDEN WISDOM OF GOD made known to mortal man is CHRIST and the MESSAGE OF THE CROSS.


Paul was not proud...he received revelation upon revelation from THE LORD, and he said as much...Paul counted everything as dung but that he had known the LORD, and he made it clear in many of his writings that all were to look to HIM, that he was only one who had laid a foundation, but that the foundation is CHRIST and no man can lay any other foundation BUT CHRIST...Paul desired to know nothing but CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.


And GOD in HIS most awesome wisdom, used the one who tore down/persecuted the BODY, so profoundly to build up/edify  the BODY...


He included himself as the last in the procession, beaten and bruised.  Paul worked diligently for the building up of CHRIST'S BODY and he prayed for the baby church always asking that  GOD might give them the spirit of understanding to better know the great gift of salvation which is in CHRIST.


Where is CHRIST to a gnostic?  


For the testimony of JESUS CHRIST is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY...all prophecy, every word of scripture spoken in a hidden and vieled sense spoke of and pointed to CHRIST.


To the testimony and the law...if they do not speak according to THE WORD, their is no light in them...


All the prophets spoke of him...they did not fully understand what they "prophecied", they did not know that what they spoke was in service to us...they did not understand that by the GRACE which would come to us in the latter generation, they also would be made perfect with us in CHRIST JESUS...


They understand now...they longed to see HIS day, not fully understanding what they spoke of when the spirit of CHRIST in them pointed to the sufferings of CHRIST for the outpouring of GRACE of GOD'S GLORY upon those who would look to HIM and believe but they do now.


They longed to see HIS day...they saw it..and they were glad for it.




May the knowledge of Christ increase and fill your being.


Hello Miknik5,


I was just surfing through the various forums, and came to this post of yours.  It should have received a response.


I am a gnostic in the sense that Jesus exhorted us to gain gnosis.  Christ is the gnosis; therefore, the gnosis is within you if the spirit of Christ is in you.  But, it is also outside of you.  There is, then, a need to receive this gnosis, this knowledge of Christ, in ever increasing measure unto full growth in it.  The gnosis is fully grown in Christ Jesus, and if Christ is in you, then to whatever level of maturity you have attained, the gnosis is in you, and what remains outside of you, is destined to be in you as well.


"Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."  Gospel of Thomas, saying #3


The idea here is that the kingdom of God is the nature of Christ Jesus that he manifested on earth.  Each of us has received of this knowledge or gnosis, when by faith, we accepted Christ into our lives.  At this point, then, it becomes necessary to grow in that knowledge to maturity.  Hence, the kingdom of God is both within and outside of us (waiting to get in).  Until this maturity, we exist in a kind of need, a need of spiritual growth, and what we still are as opposed to what Christ is, what his knowledge is, is the poverty in which we remain.


"You say, 'I have become rich and I do not need a thing'.  You do not realize that you are wretched, poor, blind and naked.  I counsel you, therefore, to buy from me gold refined in the fire that you may become rich, salve for your eyes that you may see and new clothes to wear to cover your shameful nakedness.  Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."


Here, we see Christ speaking of people who think that they know him, but they do not know him.  They are relying on worldly wealth as evidence of what they don't need, but Christ taught against such pursuits.  Contrast this behavior to that of the Smyrneans who were in poverty; yet, they were rich. (Revelation 2:9)  And, so because the Laodecians were relying on material wealth, they could not realize that they were blind, pitiful, etc...  Here, Christ invites them to open the door to him that he might consume them, and they might consume him.  This is the meal to which he refers.  And, by eating him (his flesh and blood) we are taking him inside of ourselves.  That is to say, that the kingdom that remains outside of ourselves, comes into us in the form of spiritual growth.  The items he mentions: gold, salve and clothes, are all representative of parts of his kingdom, which is the knowledge of the Father that he possesses.   


 This process is about coming to know ourselves as the very knowledge of Christ, and not of knowing our old selves.  It is the replacement of the old self, with the new self that is of the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and is itself a spirit of Christ that John calls the anointing we have from the Holy One (1 John 2).  It teaches us all things, that we may grow.


Where is Christ in all of this?  He is inside of us, and he is outside of us, waiting, even knocking upon the door of our hearts to enter.  He is the center.  He is the all, in all desiring to be known by him, and, in being known, to see him as he truly is .  Paul spoke of this as well.

"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."~ The Revelation
Quick Reply
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Jun 12, 2013 - 8:34AM #12
miknik5
Posts: 7,684

May 14, 2013 -- 6:02PM, simonzur wrote:


Jun 24, 2012 -- 9:43AM, miknik5 wrote:

Jul 21, 2009 -- 11:29PM, Xianmyst wrote:


Where is CHRIST in all this?  Who is the ONE who opens the mind to all this?  Who is the ONE who came to show/teach/reveal THE FATHER and had all authority to do so because HE came forth from GOD and is the GLORY OF GOD? 


The HIDDEN WISDOM OF GOD made known to mortal man is CHRIST and the MESSAGE OF THE CROSS.


Paul was not proud...he received revelation upon revelation from THE LORD, and he said as much...Paul counted everything as dung but that he had known the LORD, and he made it clear in many of his writings that all were to look to HIM, that he was only one who had laid a foundation, but that the foundation is CHRIST and no man can lay any other foundation BUT CHRIST...Paul desired to know nothing but CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.


And GOD in HIS most awesome wisdom, used the one who tore down/persecuted the BODY, so profoundly to build up/edify  the BODY...


He included himself as the last in the procession, beaten and bruised.  Paul worked diligently for the building up of CHRIST'S BODY and he prayed for the baby church always asking that  GOD might give them the spirit of understanding to better know the great gift of salvation which is in CHRIST.


Where is CHRIST to a gnostic?  


For the testimony of JESUS CHRIST is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY...all prophecy, every word of scripture spoken in a hidden and vieled sense spoke of and pointed to CHRIST.


To the testimony and the law...if they do not speak according to THE WORD, their is no light in them...


All the prophets spoke of him...they did not fully understand what they "prophecied", they did not know that what they spoke was in service to us...they did not understand that by the GRACE which would come to us in the latter generation, they also would be made perfect with us in CHRIST JESUS...


They understand now...they longed to see HIS day, not fully understanding what they spoke of when the spirit of CHRIST in them pointed to the sufferings of CHRIST for the outpouring of GRACE of GOD'S GLORY upon those who would look to HIM and believe but they do now.


They longed to see HIS day...they saw it..and they were glad for it.




May the knowledge of Christ increase and fill your being.


Hello Miknik5,


I was just surfing through the various forums, and came to this post of yours.  It should have received a response.


I am a gnostic in the sense that Jesus exhorted us to gain gnosis.  Christ is the gnosis; therefore, the gnosis is within you if the spirit of Christ is in you.  But, it is also outside of you.  There is, then, a need to receive this gnosis, this knowledge of Christ, in ever increasing measure unto full growth in it.  The gnosis is fully grown in Christ Jesus, and if Christ is in you, then to whatever level of maturity you have attained, the gnosis is in you, and what remains outside of you, is destined to be in you as well.


"Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."  Gospel of Thomas, saying #3


The idea here is that the kingdom of God is the nature of Christ Jesus that he manifested on earth.  Each of us has received of this knowledge or gnosis, when by faith, we accepted Christ into our lives.  At this point, then, it becomes necessary to grow in that knowledge to maturity.  Hence, the kingdom of God is both within and outside of us (waiting to get in).  Until this maturity, we exist in a kind of need, a need of spiritual growth, and what we still are as opposed to what Christ is, what his knowledge is, is the poverty in which we remain.


"You say, 'I have become rich and I do not need a thing'.  You do not realize that you are wretched, poor, blind and naked.  I counsel you, therefore, to buy from me gold refined in the fire that you may become rich, salve for your eyes that you may see and new clothes to wear to cover your shameful nakedness.  Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."


Here, we see Christ speaking of people who think that they know him, but they do not know him.  They are relying on worldly wealth as evidence of what they don't need, but Christ taught against such pursuits.  Contrast this behavior to that of the Smyrneans who were in poverty; yet, they were rich. (Revelation 2:9)  And, so because the Laodecians were relying on material wealth, they could not realize that they were blind, pitiful, etc...  Here, Christ invites them to open the door to him that he might consume them, and they might consume him.  This is the meal to which he refers.  And, by eating him (his flesh and blood) we are taking him inside of ourselves.  That is to say, that the kingdom that remains outside of ourselves, comes into us in the form of spiritual growth.  The items he mentions: gold, salve and clothes, are all representative of parts of his kingdom, which is the knowledge of the Father that he possesses.   


 This process is about coming to know ourselves as the very knowledge of Christ, and not of knowing our old selves.  It is the replacement of the old self, with the new self that is of the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and is itself a spirit of Christ that John calls the anointing we have from the Holy One (1 John 2).  It teaches us all things, that we may grow.


Where is Christ in all of this?  He is inside of us, and he is outside of us, waiting, even knocking upon the door of our hearts to enter.  He is the center.  He is the all, in all desiring to be known by him, and, in being known, to see him as he truly is .  Paul spoke of this as well.




If you are in the TEMPLE, you are in the TEMPLE...and there is no need for anything but to REMAIN...IN THE TEMPLE.


HE will lead us and give us what we need...for it is HE who gives gifts according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...not our own.


Even if I attained to the full understanding of all things, but I lack CHRIST and am not IN CHRIST...I am poor and do not even realize the extent of my poverty.


I don't glory in the increased understanding of things, I am not looking to store up all these secondary treasures which are temporal and will pass, I glory IN HIM who is TRUE TREASURE, although in "jars of clay"...and that HE has enabled it that I may come into HIS HOUSE and rest...IN HIM.

Quick Reply
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Jun 12, 2013 - 9:48AM #13
simonzur
Posts: 3,660

Jun 12, 2013 -- 8:34AM, miknik5 wrote:


May 14, 2013 -- 6:02PM, simonzur wrote:


Jun 24, 2012 -- 9:43AM, miknik5 wrote:

Jul 21, 2009 -- 11:29PM, Xianmyst wrote:


Where is CHRIST in all this?  Who is the ONE who opens the mind to all this?  Who is the ONE who came to show/teach/reveal THE FATHER and had all authority to do so because HE came forth from GOD and is the GLORY OF GOD? 


The HIDDEN WISDOM OF GOD made known to mortal man is CHRIST and the MESSAGE OF THE CROSS.


Paul was not proud...he received revelation upon revelation from THE LORD, and he said as much...Paul counted everything as dung but that he had known the LORD, and he made it clear in many of his writings that all were to look to HIM, that he was only one who had laid a foundation, but that the foundation is CHRIST and no man can lay any other foundation BUT CHRIST...Paul desired to know nothing but CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.


And GOD in HIS most awesome wisdom, used the one who tore down/persecuted the BODY, so profoundly to build up/edify  the BODY...


He included himself as the last in the procession, beaten and bruised.  Paul worked diligently for the building up of CHRIST'S BODY and he prayed for the baby church always asking that  GOD might give them the spirit of understanding to better know the great gift of salvation which is in CHRIST.


Where is CHRIST to a gnostic?  


For the testimony of JESUS CHRIST is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY...all prophecy, every word of scripture spoken in a hidden and vieled sense spoke of and pointed to CHRIST.


To the testimony and the law...if they do not speak according to THE WORD, their is no light in them...


All the prophets spoke of him...they did not fully understand what they "prophecied", they did not know that what they spoke was in service to us...they did not understand that by the GRACE which would come to us in the latter generation, they also would be made perfect with us in CHRIST JESUS...


They understand now...they longed to see HIS day, not fully understanding what they spoke of when the spirit of CHRIST in them pointed to the sufferings of CHRIST for the outpouring of GRACE of GOD'S GLORY upon those who would look to HIM and believe but they do now.


They longed to see HIS day...they saw it..and they were glad for it.




May the knowledge of Christ increase and fill your being.


Hello Miknik5,


I was just surfing through the various forums, and came to this post of yours.  It should have received a response.


I am a gnostic in the sense that Jesus exhorted us to gain gnosis.  Christ is the gnosis; therefore, the gnosis is within you if the spirit of Christ is in you.  But, it is also outside of you.  There is, then, a need to receive this gnosis, this knowledge of Christ, in ever increasing measure unto full growth in it.  The gnosis is fully grown in Christ Jesus, and if Christ is in you, then to whatever level of maturity you have attained, the gnosis is in you, and what remains outside of you, is destined to be in you as well.


"Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."  Gospel of Thomas, saying #3


The idea here is that the kingdom of God is the nature of Christ Jesus that he manifested on earth.  Each of us has received of this knowledge or gnosis, when by faith, we accepted Christ into our lives.  At this point, then, it becomes necessary to grow in that knowledge to maturity.  Hence, the kingdom of God is both within and outside of us (waiting to get in).  Until this maturity, we exist in a kind of need, a need of spiritual growth, and what we still are as opposed to what Christ is, what his knowledge is, is the poverty in which we remain.


"You say, 'I have become rich and I do not need a thing'.  You do not realize that you are wretched, poor, blind and naked.  I counsel you, therefore, to buy from me gold refined in the fire that you may become rich, salve for your eyes that you may see and new clothes to wear to cover your shameful nakedness.  Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."


Here, we see Christ speaking of people who think that they know him, but they do not know him.  They are relying on worldly wealth as evidence of what they don't need, but Christ taught against such pursuits.  Contrast this behavior to that of the Smyrneans who were in poverty; yet, they were rich. (Revelation 2:9)  And, so because the Laodecians were relying on material wealth, they could not realize that they were blind, pitiful, etc...  Here, Christ invites them to open the door to him that he might consume them, and they might consume him.  This is the meal to which he refers.  And, by eating him (his flesh and blood) we are taking him inside of ourselves.  That is to say, that the kingdom that remains outside of ourselves, comes into us in the form of spiritual growth.  The items he mentions: gold, salve and clothes, are all representative of parts of his kingdom, which is the knowledge of the Father that he possesses.   


 This process is about coming to know ourselves as the very knowledge of Christ, and not of knowing our old selves.  It is the replacement of the old self, with the new self that is of the spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and is itself a spirit of Christ that John calls the anointing we have from the Holy One (1 John 2).  It teaches us all things, that we may grow.


Where is Christ in all of this?  He is inside of us, and he is outside of us, waiting, even knocking upon the door of our hearts to enter.  He is the center.  He is the all, in all desiring to be known by him, and, in being known, to see him as he truly is .  Paul spoke of this as well.




If you are in the TEMPLE, you are in the TEMPLE...and there is no need for anything but to REMAIN...IN THE TEMPLE.


HE will lead us and give us what we need...for it is HE who gives gifts according to HIS PURPOSE for the building up of HIS BODY...not our own.


Even if I attained to the full understanding of all things, but I lack CHRIST and am not IN CHRIST...I am poor and do not even realize the extent of my poverty.


I don't glory in the increased understanding of things, I am not looking to store up all these secondary treasures which are temporal and will pass, I glory IN HIM who is TRUE TREASURE, although in "jars of clay"...and that HE has enabled it that I may come into HIS HOUSE and rest...IN HIM.





Miknik,

I am glad you finally found the post!  Smile

I don't think that what you have said here is contradictory to my thoughts.  Christ is the knowledge of all things pertaining to the Father, and as members of his body, he wants us to know them and to protect ourselves from that which sets itself up against his knowledge.

Paul spoke of this when he wrote,

" 3For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge (gnosis in the Greek, i.e. experiential knowledge) of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete."  2 Corinthians 10:3-6  ESV

So, we are engaged in spiritual warfare against the powers of this world, but to what end?  To our own obedience to the knowledge of God.  How can we be obedient to the knowledge of God if we don't first understand it?  The scriptures are the knowledge of God, his very thoughts, translated to us by his Holy Prophets for the purpose of our understanding and obedience to them.  This is what it means, for example, to live a life with clear conscience before God as Paul lived.

"My people perish for a lack of knowledge."

The knowledge of God, which is the essential nature of Jesus Christ, is necessary for this type of spiritual warfare.  Consider Jesus' teaching about "you will know them by their fruit."  How will we know and distinguish between the children of God and the children of the devil without the "knowing" part of that statement?  If we are unable to distinguish the two, then we are left vulnerable to being led astray by them, and even by ourselves.  

The knowledge of God is not greater than participation in Christ and membership in his body.  It is the same thing.  And, the more we learn of the way, the truth and the life, the more obedient we become to it, the less vulnerable we are to what is contrary to it and the more joy, inexpresiible joy, we have in Christ.  Knowledge should not be placed above an informed and faithful relaitionship with the Father and the Son, but you can't have the latter without the former.  To the degree that we have the latter is the degree to which we will have the former.

Consider James who spoke of these matters well in the first chapter of his letter. (James 1:1-18)

1.  We are under trials and temptations.  (spiritual warfare)
2.  These have come to give us perseverance that our faith may be proven genuine.
3.  By the wisdom of God we can overcome them if we ask for it and do not doubt it, so that we may become full grown and complete not lacking anything.  (In other words, by receiving the wisdom (knowledge) of God we grow up in the faith, and what we had lacked in our immaturity in Christ, we have then received.)
4.  If we doubt we are two-souled and vulnerable to the attacks of the enemy.
5.  It requires humility in spirit, and pride leads to the fall.  (the humble win spiritual battles, but the prideful lose)
6.  The one who succeeds in spiritual warfare will receive th crown of life.  (this crown is the joy of fellowship with Christ and all the children of God as brothers.  I can unpack that if you like.)
7.  God is not the one tempting us to lead us astray from God's ways.  He isn't tempted by evil, and he tempts no one.  We do it ourselves because of our own evil desires.  (This is why we need the knowledge of God, that is Christ, to overcome.)
8.  Don't be deceived (by self or others).  (If you don't have knowledge of the truth, how can you not be deceived?  But, if you have knowledge of the truth, who can lie to you?)
9.  Every good an perfect gift is from God.  (The opposite here is that whatever is not good and perfect doesn't come from God.  The wisdom or knowledge of God is what is needed to distinguish between the two.)
10.  He chose to give us birth as firstfruits.  (We are the children of God if we persevere, and walk in his ways.)

If we trust in Christ, then we come to him by knowing him as he truly is.  We come to understand his language and his way of life.  We become the fruit of his words and deeds in our daily lives.  We find our "voice" within the framework of his own, and we overcome the world.  Then, we live in inexpressible joy and the peace that transcends all understanding.

Though there are many who abuse this knowledge and lead others astray, in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, the whole of scripture really, there is nothing sinister.  It is simply about coming to know Christ, and in doing so, to know the Father himself.  And, on that basis, to be like them.  We come to know ourselves as the very knowledge of God, and then we are mature children of God, putting behind us the sins of the world and childishness.  We draw near to him, and he to us.

And James also said,

"13Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."  James 3:13-18  ESV

Their are two kinds of wisdom, Miknik.  Either we have the wisdom that comes from God, which is of heaven, spiritual and able to defeat the wisdom of the world, or we have the wisdom of the world which is a stronghold and argumentation that sets itself up againt the knoweldge of God.

"16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.d 18Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."  James 1:16-18  ESV

The wisdom of God or word of truth is the good and perfect gifts that come down from heaven from the Father.  Jesus is the manifestation of it.  He gave it to us so that we could become the children of God.  We should not be ignorant of it.

"


9His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10He said, The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,



“ ‘though seeing, they may not see;


though hearing, they may not understand.’
Luke 8:9-10  NIV 





May God's blessings be upon you.




"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."~ The Revelation
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 months ago  ::  May 14, 2014 - 10:49PM #14
InHisHands
Posts: 2,464

Simonzur,


Why are you on a thread that discusses Gnosticism?  Do you glory in the gift of knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom or Christ alone as the one who opens the door unto the kingdom?

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook