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Switch to Forum Live View The 70 Week/Years Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27
5 years ago  ::  Oct 14, 2009 - 3:53AM #161
madmutt61
Posts: 1,333

Oct 12, 2009 -- 10:20AM, Ben Masada wrote:


Oct 12, 2009 -- 4:33AM, madmutt61 wrote:


Oct 11, 2009 -- 1:07PM, andrewcyrus wrote:


Jun 27, 2009 -- 12:08PM, andrewcyrus wrote:


 

Andy,


In your Bible, there is a book.  Leviticus.  Please turn to Leviticus 25.  Pay close attention to Vss 1-8.  Very important.  Leviticus 25:1-7 deals with the sabbatical year.  Six years the People were to work the land and on the seventh year, they were to give the land a rest.  You may also find a reference to the sabbatical year in Exodus 23:10,11.  Pay most attention to vs 8 of Lviticus 25.  They were to take seven weeks of years.  What?  Yes, seven weeks of years and it even explain so further in the verse that one week is seven years.  49 years.  And the next year, on the Day of Atonement, was the beginning of the Year of Jubilee.


Now, why do I mention this, Andy?


Turn in your Bible to another book within there.  2 Chronicles.  Which, in Ben's Bible would be found within the Book of Writings.  As is Daniel.  2 Chronicles 36: 20,21.  Pay especially close attention to vs 21 of 2 Chronicles 36.  "to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, TO FULFILL SEVENTY YEARS." 


What book was Daniel reading in Daniel 9:2?  Jeremiah.  What book did the author of Chronicles refer to?  Jeremiah.  Did the writer of Leviticus refer to the day=year formula to come up with the Sabbatical year?  The year of Jubilee?  Or was it not "weeks"?


Hey!  What do you know?  This line upon line and precept upon precept stuff works!  Huh, Andy!

Was Ben, being a Jew, wrong?  Not from a Jew's POV.  A day with the LORD is like a thousand years.  Is that a means also to interpret prophecy?  Take a look at Numbers14:26-35.  Especially, vs 34.  According to the numbers of days the they spied out the land, forty days, the People were to wander about the Wilderness for forty years.  One year for each day the spies were in the land.  Those who were 20 years and above died in the Wilderness.


But it should not be used as a text to support the day=year formula to interpret a prophecy.  As the text in 2 Chronicles show, for each sabbatical year that was not kept, the People would be taken out of the land so that the land  would enjoy its sabbaths.  70 years .  For each sabbatical year they did not keep, 70 in all. 


What of Ezekiel 4: 4-6?  390 days and 40 days.  One day for each year.  Was it fulfilled?   390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah.  Was not Ezekiel a contemporary of Daniel?  Jeremiah?  What is the meaning of this prophecy?   


And what would Ezekiel have to do with Daniel's vision in Daniel 9:24-27?   Cannot use the day=year here in Daniel 9.  But if you use the week equals a year, then it just might work.


70 weeks are decreed.  the Hebrew word for "weeks" means "seven"  70 "sevens".  Does a "week" here mean "years"?  After all, Daniel was reading Jeremiah.  And Daniel understood that the 70 year exile was about to end, according to Jeremiah.  Yet, according to Gabriel, 70 weeks were to be decreed about Daniel's people.  Jerusalem, the holy city.  6 things to note.  To finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.  Ben believes that all of this has been accomplished.  Okay.  But the question is "when"?  When Daniel receives this vision, Darius was in power as ruler.  Babylon has fallen as foretold.  Now, under what ruler was a decree issued to allow the Jews to go home?  Was it not Cyrus the Great?  What year?  And wasn't Cyrus chosen by God?  An anointed prince?  (Dan 9:25)  A seven week period.  According to Isaiah, by name, names Cyrus to be this chosen one(Isaiah 45)  The same Cyrus of 2 Chronicles 36:22-23.  And in Ezra 1:1-4. 


Is this the beginning of Daniel's 70 weeks?  Was it halted by Darius and then resumed later?  How many waves of exiled Jews left from Babylon and from Persia?  How long? 


After this 7 week period, a 62 week period  follows.  Then, beginning in vs 26, the 70th week.


You can explain your side to Ben.  I will listen and comment later. 




Mutt, after such an impressive post, this of yours above, I doubt if Andy has much left to explain to me. I hope not to spoil you by saing that you have been one of the best with the Scriptures so far. Keep the good work pal. I enjoy someone I can learn from.





Ben,


I promise you, you have not spoiled me:)  I am glad that we can discuss these matters where we do differ with respect towards one another.  I believe that I can also learn from you as well.  Thank you for the kind words.


So, from what I gather from your past posts, you do not see the prince in Daniel 9 as being the Messiah?  I understand that you believe that the nation Israel is the Messiah, that is, anointed one.  And I can not argue that Israel was not chosen by God.  It is indeed scriptual. Am I correct so far?


Okay, question here?  You believe that the Seventy weeks spoken of in Daniel 9 as having been fulfilled?  That the seventy weeks are the seventy year exile period?  Just asking for clarification.


What brings up the question in my mind, Ben is this.  In Daniel 9:2,  Daniel was reading Jeremiah and he discerned that from Jeremiah's writings that the 70 year exile that he spoke of was nearly at an end.  When Daniel had received his vision, Gabriel told him that 70 weeks had been decreed about Daniel's people and the holy city.  Please bear with me here, Ben.  Daniel was told that, in vs 25, from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.   When did this word went out to rebuild and restore Jerusalem?  By whose word?  Daniel was reading the words of Jeremiah during the first year of Darius.  Yet, it was Cyrus the Great that issued the decree to allow the Jews to return to their homeland.  True?  That is what is taught in the closing words of 2 Chronicles 36.  In Ezra 1, the same Cyrus.  As it was foretold in Isaiah 44:28 to Isaiah 45:13.  Cyrus was an anointed one, chosen by God to restore His people to their homeland.  Even named him to Isaiah.  So, does this seventy weeks  is a vision of things yet to be after the Exile ends?  A week equals a year.  Seven weeks = 7 years?  Then 62 weeks equals 62 years.  So far, 69 years.  And that 70th week? 


I am just  trying to get a timeline year, Ben.  How long did the Persian Empire last after the Babylonian Empire fell?  When did Alexander the Great conquer the Persians?  When did the Greek Empire split into four kingdoms after Alexander died?  When did the Maccabean Revolt occur?  How does this tie in with the vision in Daniel 9?  Did all of this happen in a seventy year period of time?  Or more within a 490 year period of time?  About how long did it take to rebuild Jerusalem?  When Cyrus gave the word that the Exile was over, how many phases in which the Jews returned back to the homeland?  3?  Ezra and Nehemiah records this. 


So, I would appreciate your views here, Ben. 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2009 - 8:24AM #162
Ben Masada
Posts: 2,808

Oct 14, 2009 -- 3:53AM, madmutt61 wrote:


Oct 12, 2009 -- 10:20AM, Ben Masada wrote:

 

Ben,


I promise you, you have not spoiled me:)  I am glad that we can discuss these matters where we do differ with respect towards one another.  I believe that I can also learn from you as well.  Thank you for the kind words.


So, from what I gather from your past posts, you do not see the prince in Daniel 9 as being the Messiah?  I understand that you believe that the nation Israel is the Messiah, that is, anointed one.  And I can not argue that Israel was not chosen by God.  It is indeed scriptual. Am I correct so far?


Okay, question here?  You believe that the Seventy weeks spoken of in Daniel 9 as having been fulfilled?  That the seventy weeks are the seventy year exile period?  Just asking for clarification.


What brings up the question in my mind, Ben is this.  In Daniel 9:2,  Daniel was reading Jeremiah and he discerned that from Jeremiah's writings that the 70 year exile that he spoke of was nearly at an end.  When Daniel had received his vision, Gabriel told him that 70 weeks had been decreed about Daniel's people and the holy city.  Please bear with me here, Ben.  Daniel was told that, in vs 25, from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.   When did this word went out to rebuild and restore Jerusalem?  By whose word?  Daniel was reading the words of Jeremiah during the first year of Darius.  Yet, it was Cyrus the Great that issued the decree to allow the Jews to return to their homeland.  True?  That is what is taught in the closing words of 2 Chronicles 36.  In Ezra 1, the same Cyrus.  As it was foretold in Isaiah 44:28 to Isaiah 45:13.  Cyrus was an anointed one, chosen by God to restore His people to their homeland.  Even named him to Isaiah.  So, does this seventy weeks  is a vision of things yet to be after the Exile ends?  A week equals a year.  Seven weeks = 7 years?  Then 62 weeks equals 62 years.  So far, 69 years.  And that 70th week? 


I am just  trying to get a timeline year, Ben.  How long did the Persian Empire last after the Babylonian Empire fell?  When did Alexander the Great conquer the Persians?  When did the Greek Empire split into four kingdoms after Alexander died?  When did the Maccabean Revolt occur?  How does this tie in with the vision in Daniel 9?  Did all of this happen in a seventy year period of time?  Or more within a 490 year period of time?  About how long did it take to rebuild Jerusalem?  When Cyrus gave the word that the Exile was over, how many phases in which the Jews returned back to the homeland?  3?  Ezra and Nehemiah records this. 


So, I would appreciate your views here, Ben. 


 




Mutt, that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 has to be studied under two visions.  The first from the "word" (not decree) given off by Jeremiah in a letter to the exiles to rebuild Jerusalem, which here means the People themselves. That's in Jeremiah 29:1-10.


The first vision goes up to the Prince Cyrus, when he decreed the return of the Jews to Israel. The problem though is that according to Jeremiah 29:10, only after 70 years had elapsed, the People could return. And at the time of the Prince Cyrus, only 7 weeks of years had gone by. I mean 49 years. That's 21 years missing for the exile to finish. Another vision is implemented to explain why the People could not leave before the 70 years had finished.


Mutt, if you take a focused reading at the thread, you will understand much better how the two visions intercorrelate themselves into the final fulfillment of the 70 years. I think that if I try to explain it by parts here, you will rather get more confused. The value of a day is taken as a year, but in a way that the prophecy is fulfilled as 70 week/years.


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2009 - 1:39AM #163
madmutt61
Posts: 1,333

Oct 16, 2009 -- 8:24AM, Ben Masada wrote:


Oct 14, 2009 -- 3:53AM, madmutt61 wrote:


Oct 12, 2009 -- 10:20AM, Ben Masada wrote:

 

Ben,


I promise you, you have not spoiled me:)  I am glad that we can discuss these matters where we do differ with respect towards one another.  I believe that I can also learn from you as well.  Thank you for the kind words.


So, from what I gather from your past posts, you do not see the prince in Daniel 9 as being the Messiah?  I understand that you believe that the nation Israel is the Messiah, that is, anointed one.  And I can not argue that Israel was not chosen by God.  It is indeed scriptual. Am I correct so far?


Okay, question here?  You believe that the Seventy weeks spoken of in Daniel 9 as having been fulfilled?  That the seventy weeks are the seventy year exile period?  Just asking for clarification.


What brings up the question in my mind, Ben is this.  In Daniel 9:2,  Daniel was reading Jeremiah and he discerned that from Jeremiah's writings that the 70 year exile that he spoke of was nearly at an end.  When Daniel had received his vision, Gabriel told him that 70 weeks had been decreed about Daniel's people and the holy city.  Please bear with me here, Ben.  Daniel was told that, in vs 25, from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.   When did this word went out to rebuild and restore Jerusalem?  By whose word?  Daniel was reading the words of Jeremiah during the first year of Darius.  Yet, it was Cyrus the Great that issued the decree to allow the Jews to return to their homeland.  True?  That is what is taught in the closing words of 2 Chronicles 36.  In Ezra 1, the same Cyrus.  As it was foretold in Isaiah 44:28 to Isaiah 45:13.  Cyrus was an anointed one, chosen by God to restore His people to their homeland.  Even named him to Isaiah.  So, does this seventy weeks  is a vision of things yet to be after the Exile ends?  A week equals a year.  Seven weeks = 7 years?  Then 62 weeks equals 62 years.  So far, 69 years.  And that 70th week? 


I am just  trying to get a timeline year, Ben.  How long did the Persian Empire last after the Babylonian Empire fell?  When did Alexander the Great conquer the Persians?  When did the Greek Empire split into four kingdoms after Alexander died?  When did the Maccabean Revolt occur?  How does this tie in with the vision in Daniel 9?  Did all of this happen in a seventy year period of time?  Or more within a 490 year period of time?  About how long did it take to rebuild Jerusalem?  When Cyrus gave the word that the Exile was over, how many phases in which the Jews returned back to the homeland?  3?  Ezra and Nehemiah records this. 


So, I would appreciate your views here, Ben. 


 




Mutt, that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 has to be studied under two visions.  The first from the "word" (not decree) given off by Jeremiah in a letter to the exiles to rebuild Jerusalem, which here means the People themselves. That's in Jeremiah 29:1-10.


The first vision goes up to the Prince Cyrus, when he decreed the return of the Jews to Israel. The problem though is that according to Jeremiah 29:10, only after 70 years had elapsed, the People could return. And at the time of the Prince Cyrus, only 7 weeks of years had gone by. I mean 49 years. That's 21 years missing for the exile to finish. Another vision is implemented to explain why the People could not leave before the 70 years had finished.


Mutt, if you take a focused reading at the thread, you will understand much better how the two visions intercorrelate themselves into the final fulfillment of the 70 years. I think that if I try to explain it by parts here, you will rather get more confused. The value of a day is taken as a year, but in a way that the prophecy is fulfilled as 70 week/years.


 





Ben,


Appreciate the reply.  Have a blessed Sabbath and we will take from then, OK?

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2009 - 10:34PM #164
sincerly
Posts: 4,052

  


by [Ben:


Mutt, that frame of Daniel 9:24-27 has to be studied under two visions.  The first from the "word" (not decree) given off by Jeremiah in a letter to the exiles to rebuild Jerusalem, which here means the People themselves. That's in Jeremiah 29:1-10.


The first vision goes up to the Prince Cyrus, when he decreed the return of the Jews to Israel. The problem though is that according to Jeremiah 29:10, only after 70 years had elapsed, the People could return. And at the time of the Prince Cyrus, only 7 weeks of years had gone by. I mean 49 years. That's 21 years missing for the exile to finish. Another vision is implemented to explain why the People could not leave before the 70 years had finished.


Mutt, if you take a focused reading at the thread, you will understand much better how the two visions intercorrelate themselves into the final fulfillment of the 70 years. I think that if I try to explain it by parts here, you will rather get more confused. The value of a day is taken as a year, but in a way that the prophecy is fulfilled as 70 week/years.



Ben, you are confusing the picture as it is. Why bring in another vision???/"words of the letter" written by Jeremiah at the beginning of the First wave of captives into Babylon?? It has nothing to do with the 70 weeks prophecy of Dan.9:24-27.   Daniel was concerned about the vision   he had in the previous chapter.  Weeks are made up of days---and 70 weeks is 490 days/years. However, 69 of those weeks was unto "Messiah the Prince".   NOT Cyrus.


It was in the "midst of that 70th week that the HE would cause the"sacrifice and oblation to cease".  The Messiah would be "cut off"/"Sacrificed for the sins of the world.


 Ezra7:7-28 is that "Commandment of Artaxerxes" for the rebuilding.-----457 B.C.

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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