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Switch to Forum Live View Some Evangelicals call me a liar and a blasphemer.
6 years ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 6:15AM #1
Threein1
Posts: 278

My experience of Evangelical Ministries in the UK has not been a happy one because I tell that my personal experience of Lord Jesus required me to totally repent before He would save me and He then told me to keep the Ten Commandments. 


This led to one "Evangelical Rescue Ministry" banning me from their Forum and calling me a "Liar and a blasphemer" because, they believe, to quote the Evangelical Manifesto "Second, we believe that the only ground for our acceptance by God is what Jesus Christ did on the cross and what he is now doing through his risen life, whereby he exposed and reversed the course of human sin and violence, bore the penalty for our sins".


Another Evangelical Ministry warned me off their Forum when I said that by them teaching children as young as five to try and spiritually heal and speak in tongues there was a possibility that such young ones would try to do this away from church and thus lay themselves open to satanic influence.


Another Pastor whom I knew personally had persuaded some friends to sacrifice much to help him plant a church in a very bad area of Belfast.  He disagreed with my view of scripture but he was virtually worshipped by those who thought he was a marvellous preacher.  Eventually he told his wife and young child, and his congregation that he had to visit the USA to reconstitute a Rescue Group he had been formally involved in because witches had murdered one member of the group plus a victim they were trying to save.  It all proved to be lies as he had run away with a woman he had met on the Internet.  Six months later I came across him on AOL saying he had planted a church in the UK and now God had led him to plant another in the USA and appealing for helpers!!


The Statements of Faith of many Evangelicals follow the same pattern in stressing that Jesus died in our place and thus God's Law no longer applies. This has to be very attractive to sinners so it is no wonder that recruits flock to their pews.


Repentance and keeping the Ten Moral Commandments of God are the mainstays of Christianity so shouldn't Faith Statements, Evangelical Manifestos, etc state this?


Keith

My videos are now uploaded onto my Beliefnet profile and are accessed on the left hand side under 'videos'/ view Gallery/ Alternatively my testimony detailing my experiences of both God and the Devil can read at:
http://sites.google.com/site/phantomsofreality/Home
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6 years ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 2:01PM #2
Anesis
Posts: 1,543





Threein1, I am sorry that your experience of Evangelical Christians has not been a positive one. Please recognize that even though we are saved, we are not perfect....not even our "leaders" or "public figures" who suggest that they represent our faith. 


 


There are a number of things that stood out for me in your post. First, I just wanted to say that not all Evangelicals speak in tongues, although Pentecostals and others who believe in speaking in tongues are Evangelical because they believe in a literal understanding of the Bible.


 


The Evangelical Manifesto is an accurate description of Evangelicals in Canada and the US. Because we believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, we believe Jesus when he says that unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Being born again is the godly sorrowful attitude that leads to repentance. We do believe we need to be born again (repent) for salvation.


 


Pertaining to the ten commandments, we believe there is one command given in the NT, which sums up all the other commandments. It can be found repeatedly in verses such as John 13:34, John 15:10-12, Romans 13:9, 1 John 3:23, and 2 John 1:5. To summarize all of these verses as well as all the commandments, his command is that we love the Lord our God with all our being, and then that we love one another as we love ourselves (Mark 12:30-31). When we keep these commandments, that we love God first and others (and self) second, the ten commandments are automatically kept by default.


 


So in essence, by saying we believe in a literal interpretation of scripture and by saying that we believe scripture to be God's divine inspiration (inerrant in its original writing), we are saying that we must repent and that we must keep God’s commands, which are summed up in the command to love Him first and then love self and one another. The Manifesto doesn’t explicitly say this because it is assumed that by pointing us to the Bible as the inspired word of God, that we will read about the particulars in it. The Manifesto was intended to distinguish Evangelicals from other faith persuasions such as fundamental and liberal Christianity.


 

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6 years ago  ::  May 03, 2009 - 2:58PM #3
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hello Keith,


You asked the question:  Repentance and keeping the Ten Moral Commandments of God are the mainstays of Christianity so shouldn't Faith Statements, Evangelical Manifestos, etc state this?


That would depend on whether it is the truth of God's word or not.  I've personally never heard the ten commandments referred to as the ten moral commandments.  God asks us to live even greater lives than the ten commandments.  As a matter of fact Jesus boiled it down to just two.  Love God with all your heart and love one another as yourself.


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.

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6 years ago  ::  May 04, 2009 - 5:32AM #4
Threein1
Posts: 278

May 3, 2009 -- 2:58PM, miami-ted wrote:


Hello Keith,


You asked the question:  Repentance and keeping the Ten Moral Commandments of God are the mainstays of Christianity so shouldn't Faith Statements, Evangelical Manifestos, etc state this?


That would depend on whether it is the truth of God's word or not.  I've personally never heard the ten commandments referred to as the ten moral commandments.  God asks us to live even greater lives than the ten commandments.  As a matter of fact Jesus boiled it down to just two.  Love God with all your heart and love one another as yourself.


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.




Ted.  Are you a bible literalist who thinks that because the word 'moral' doesn't appear in the bible the Ten Commandments are not the Moral Law of God? If that is so presumably you would agree with those who say I am a liar and a blasphemer when I say that Lord Jesus spelled out when asked, that His Love Commandments encapsulated the Ten?


I agree with what you say in your profile that: "I believe that everything one really needs to know about the bible is found in the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and that the rest of the new testament only expands on them" so why do you ignore Matt 19 v 17/19?


Keith

My videos are now uploaded onto my Beliefnet profile and are accessed on the left hand side under 'videos'/ view Gallery/ Alternatively my testimony detailing my experiences of both God and the Devil can read at:
http://sites.google.com/site/phantomsofreality/Home
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6 years ago  ::  May 04, 2009 - 8:50AM #5
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Good morning Keith,


No, I'm not such a literalist as that, I merely mentioned that I had never heard them referred to as the 'ten moral commandments'.  I am in complete agreement with what you say and even know that I am actually held to a higher standard than the 'ten commandments'.  Just as the place that you refer to in in Matthews account of Jesus' words our Lord lists murder, adultery, stealing, false testimony, honoring one's parents and loving our neighbor as we would love ourselves.  These are not the 'ten commandments'.


The very first one is completely left out of this list and the last is not even a part of the 'ten'.  This is why I say that we are actually held to a higher account.  You see, I could keep the part of the ten commandments that apply to how we are to treat others, i.e., not stealing or lying or sleeping with another man's wife, etc.  But my Lord explained that honoring God's desire for us was even more than these.  Jesus said that our thoughts even keep us from honoring God as they concern others.  He said that for me even to harbor hateful thoughts against another was as much a sin to God as my desire to kill a man.  He said that for me even to consider another man's wife as beautiful and desirous of affection was as much a sin in the eyes of God as to actually take her to bed.  These, for me, are much harder to keep and therefore hold me to an even higher standard than the 'moral ten'.


I have crossed paths with many people in my life that, while I wouldn't actually commit an act of murder against them, I have spent many an hour working out ways that I might make them pay for what they have done and these thoughts are not pretty ones.  I have stood in social gatherings and looked around the room and had adulterous thoughts of women that would well make a sailor blush and because of an early indoctrination into pornography, have actually spent many a time on my knees in prayer begging God's forgiveness for such things.  I didn't actually commit the act of adultery, but I certainly desired adultery as a goal to attain.


And, of course, Jesus left out the greatest command according to his very own words.  To love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength.  Notice too that Jesus did not even word the command as God gave it at Mount Sinai.  God wrote on the tablets of Moses that we were to have no other gods before him and that we were to not bow down to or honor other gods or misuse the name of God.  Nothing about 'loving' God.  Just a law that the Israelites were to uphold.  Jesus gave another explanation of that 'law'.  He said that if we love God with all our mind and strength that we would, by the law of love, keep the commandment as given to Moses. 


Therefore, I don't find that the 'big ten moral commandments' as being the full and complete command of how we should strive to live under the new covenant and are not required as a part of any pledge or confirmation of allegiance to God or the Christian faith.


It is well to remember that, or at least consider, that up until the first disciples were released upon the world with the message of salvation through our Lord and Savior, Jesus, that the Scriptures were not originally written or intended for us, the Gentiles.


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.

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6 years ago  ::  May 05, 2009 - 3:11AM #6
Threein1
Posts: 278

miami-ted


"No, I'm not such a literalist as that, I merely mentioned that I had never heard them referred to as the 'ten moral commandments'."


All Christians, Jews and Muslims  acknowledge the 10 Commandments as being God's Moral Law.  The 1611 KJV is the only bible that can be relied upon.


"and even know that I am actually held to a higher standard than the ten commandments"


What standards (laws) do you place above God's? Look at the 1611 KJV Matt 19 v17 again. In v17 Jesus places the 1st Commandment first so the rest automatically follow on. They are:


 THE TEN COMMANDMENTS


1) I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt have no other gods but Me.


2) Thou shalt not make any graven image, not the likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or in the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. Thou shall not bow down to them or worship them.


3) Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.


4) Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do: but the seventh is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.


5) Honour thy Father and thy mother.


6) Thou shalt do no murder.


7) Thou not shalt not commit adultery.


8) Thou shalt not steal.


9) Thou shalt not bear false witness. 


10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours house, nor thy neighbours wife, nor his manservant, not his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbours.


You seem to be claiming that the Ten do not apply to you yet everything that concerns you is contained within them.  You cannot claim superiority as there is no higher standard.  Have you forgotten that Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law not destroy it?


"God wrote on the tablets of Moses that we were to have no other gods before him and that we were to not bow down to or honor other gods or misuse the name of God.  Nothing about 'loving' God."


What you call "Just a law that the Israelites were to uphold" Jesus fulfilled and stands as the Moral Law of God for all time.  


"Therefore, I don't find that the 'big ten moral commandments' as being the full and complete command of how we should strive to live under the new covenant and are not required as a part of any pledge or confirmation of allegiance to God or the Christian faith."


Those who place themselves above God's Moral Laws commit the Antinomianism Heresy by claiming that the Ten Commandments don't apply to them.  Jesus fulfilled for all time God's Moral Laws whilst Antinomians seek to destroy them.


You may care to look at my No 11 video which I uploaded yesterday at: community.beliefnet.com/threein1/go/vide... If it is still breaking up I will reload it but it can also be viewed on the YouTube link below it.


Keith

My videos are now uploaded onto my Beliefnet profile and are accessed on the left hand side under 'videos'/ view Gallery/ Alternatively my testimony detailing my experiences of both God and the Devil can read at:
http://sites.google.com/site/phantomsofreality/Home
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6 years ago  ::  May 05, 2009 - 9:06AM #7
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hello 3n1,


You ask:  What standards (laws) do you place above God's?


None.


But since I live under the life giving promise of the new covenant, and yes God has proclaimed through Ezekiel that the life we live after Jesus' sacrifice is a new covenant not like the old covenant that He made with Moses when He brought His people out of Israel, I strive to live under the covenant as explained by the one who brought us the new covenant, Jesus.


Jesus taught that there was an even greater command than the 10.  He clearly explained that we would keep even the 10 and more, if we lived by the two that he explained to the rich young ruler.  He explained that in his day the teachers of the law were preaching and teaching the 10, but then clearly told them, "I tell you the truth, you have heard it said, 'do not murder', but I tell you even one who hates his brother is a murderer in his heart.  You have also heard it said, 'do not commit adultery', but again I tell you that even if you lust after someone in your heart you are committing adultery."


So, I hope you can understand that this simple teaching is showing us that God expects more from us than just being able to hold our wicked thoughts from becoming reality by actually murdering those we hate, which is what the law of Moses taught.  Or that even though we fantasize about taking some other's spouse, if we don't actually act upon it and commit adultery we are without sin.  No, my friend, Jesus taught that our sin actually begins when we even entertain these thoughts in our heart and it is that teaching that superimposes upon the 10 and it is a teaching that comes straight from God.


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.

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6 years ago  ::  May 05, 2009 - 10:17AM #8
Anesis
Posts: 1,543

Keith, I'm curious if you are SDA. Your arguments and focus is very much similar to theirs. I will remind you this is the Evangelical Christianity board, for EC's. If you wish to debate or argue from another perspective, you are welcome to post on the debate boards.


You have implied that Ted (or "Those who") place themselves above God's Moral Laws....  But I do not see anywhere that Ted or anyone else here has done that. Jesus himself fulfilled the law; he did not destroy it, nor do we. However, the Bible is clear that Jesus gave us an even greater law (by his own words) which rises above OT law.....it is attitudinal law. In other words, God's requirement of the Israelites was only that they behaved....God knows that is impossible for us, and so now we are under grace. Not only that, but it is not behaviour which God will judge, but the heart. Jesus gave us the new law so that the OT law would be fulfilled by default. There is no need to hold to the letter of the Mosaic law if we have an attitude of love because it just automatically happens.


EC's believe Jesus when he said he has given us a new commandment which is greater than all the other commandments because the one commandment contains all the others. You suggest that the ten commandments contain everything that concerns us, but Jesus said that the greatest command to love contains even the ten......it kinda makes the ten redundant.

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6 years ago  ::  May 05, 2009 - 10:49AM #9
miami-ted
Posts: 981

ooops, sorry, that should be, 'not like the one when He brought His people out of Egypt'.

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6 years ago  ::  May 05, 2009 - 11:07AM #10
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hi again, Keith,


You wrote:


Those who place themselves above God's Moral Laws commit the Antinomianism Heresy by claiming that the Ten Commandments don't apply to them.  Jesus fulfilled for all time God's Moral Laws whilst Antinomians seek to destroy them.


You seem to have gotten stuck somewhere.  Your argument sounds considerably like the old LP records when they would hit a scratch.  "La-da-da-da-da, ... La-da-da-da-da,... La-da-da-da-da,' and so on.  It has been clearly explained that no one is claiming that the big ten were, and are, not of value, but there is a greater law and Jesus himself said, and you can find it yourself in the gospel of Mark 12:31, that after speaking the two laws of which I am claiming as the way we are to live under the new covenant, "...There is no commandment greater than these."


Now, I don't mean to belabor the point, but.... how is that these very words of the Lord Jesus, which you and I both claim as our Savior and teacher, don't say the same thing to you as they do to me?  How is it that these very words don't clearly say to you, "If there is no greater commandment, then how am I supposed to hold the 10 above these?  Wouldn't it logically follow that the 10 stand below these?"


The new covenant Scriptures are clear that the law was given to convict us of our sin and that no flesh will be saved by merely keeping the law.  Wait a minute......"What do you mean that no flesh will be saved by merely keeping the law?  It's what should be set as the creed of faith of every Christian so why can't it save them?"  What is wrong with the law that it can't bring about our salvation?  If I live by the law of the 10 moral commandments of God I will receive my salvation!!  No you won't.  First of all you can't do it.  You may try and try, but you can't do it.  The law is given only that we may know of our sin and be convicted that we need something to save us.  Something else to give us the promise of eternal life and that something else is our faith in Jesus.  Yes, we should strive to live a life that mirrors the law of the 10 moral commandments and the law of the two new commandments, but we won't be able to do it!!  I can already feel that you feel some animosity towards me and those of whom you have debated this topic before.  You don't really love me as you love yourself.  What are you now going to depend on if you can't keep the law?


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.

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