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Switch to Forum Live View Islam, dogs, and the ignorance of Western converts
5 years ago  ::  Mar 27, 2009 - 7:05PM #1
tsingbao
Posts: 223

There was a flare-up in the UK recently about a police advertisement which featured a black police dog sitting inside a police hat. Local Muslims blew their corks over it, and strangely enough but necessarily not that strangely, some western Muslim converts chastized the police about the police's apology over this ad and the offense they caused Muslims, having an extreme lack of understanding over dogs and Islam.


This is the picture which caused the uproar:


 http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/01/article-1030798-01CF01ED00000578-898_468x338.jpg


A website run by an obviously ignorant western convert trying to explain this situation is this: http://www.islam4women.org/?p=52


This convert tries to use her own understanding to rationalize away the conception that Muslims have a phobia about dogs by pointing to Muslims who own dogs to herd their sheep. Frankly, had she studied the religion she claims to follow before having converted to it, she'd have known that Muslims do indeed have phobias about dogs, especially black ones, such as depicted in that police advertisement. Instead of doing her homework, she chastizes the police for their ignorance!


Examples of Muslim dog phobia:


At least one Islamic website has a page dedicated to the topic. http://muttaqun.com/dogs.html


This page openly advocates cruelty to animals by killing them because of the color of their fur (animal racism, if you will).


Kill a dog that is pure black.  Take the pure black dog to the dog pound; they automatically "put down" (i.e. "put to sleep", kill) a dog after a few weeks of no-one claiming the dog... Have mercy on a dog (that is not pure black) who needs help to survive.


Where does this come from? Hadiths, the sayings of Muhammad. Examples are,


 


Bukhari Vol. 1, #490


Narrated Aisha: "The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey, and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people.' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away, for I disliked to face him.'"


 Muslim #1032


Abu Dharr reported: "The Messenger of Allah said: 'When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cutt off (by passing of an) ass, woman, and black dog. I said: 'O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog?' He said: 'O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah as you are asking me, and he said: 'The black dog is a devil.'


Abu Dawud #0704:


Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:


Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: "I think the Apostle of Allah said: 'When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw.'"


Bukhari Vol. 7, #843


Narrated Salim's father: "Once Gabriel promised to visit the Prophet but he delayed and thr Prophet got worried about that. At last he came out and found Gabriel and complained to him of his grief (for his delay). Gabriel said to him, 'We do not enter a place in which there is a picture or a dog.'"

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2009 - 7:18PM #2
IDBC
Posts: 4,460

 


ROUND UP THE USUAL APOOGETICS


1.  It is a cultural thing and has nothing to do with the religion of Islam.


2.  The Ahadith are unreliable.


3.  If it doesn't say it in the Quran it isn't true.


4. Muhammad never killed a dog, all black or otherwise, therefore no one else can

HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2009 - 8:32PM #3
tsingbao
Posts: 223

To say its weak Hadith is fine, albeit one shows somewhere where this can be referenced. Simply saying that its weak without providing evidence isn't an argument at all. I've looked repeatedly for Islamic resources which categorize Hadith by strength, and such a resource simply does not exist. Even many of the imams issuing fatwas will refer to this or that Hadith being weak, but they never tell us how they know that.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2009 - 8:23AM #4
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Salaam

The Quran verry clearly obligates us to follow the Sunnah, thus the Sunnah is binding on us.

If there are any hadiths which are verified to an acceptable level [as authentic], and it dont contradict the Quran, then it is our duty to accept it, for the Sunnah has been preserved by means of perpetual practice by the muslim Ummah, in memmory and in wirtten documents [the hadiths]; the former two are probably? all available in hadith too.

here are some hadiths [with explanations] on dogs and what the experts of islam have deduced from such evidence...:

Before i start I'd like to say that dogs are Allah's creatures, thus should be treated with kindness:

Having a dog as a pet is prohibitively disliked (makruh tahriman). However, there is no harm in acquiring a hunting dog, or a guard dog to protect one's sheep or property.

It is related by Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whoever acquires a dog, with the exception of a dog for hunting, or guarding sheep, or protecting the harvest, then a large portion of his reward will be diminished every day." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim]

Abu Talha relates (Allah be well pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The angels do not enter a house that has a dog or a picture." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim]

Now we can see that the above hadiths are related by Bukhari and muslim; these two compliations are the most authentic, respectively, hadiths compilations; such hadiths are rigorously authenticated and they do not contradict the Quran [they wouldn't have been clasified as such if they did contradict the Quran]

It is known that the impurity of a dog is a major impurity because if a dog drinks in a container, it is an obligation to wash it seven times one of which or the first of which with soil. The Prophet said: "If a dog drinks in any container of yours, it is an obligation to wash it seven times, the first of which with soil." [Muslim].



And here are the rulings of the four Schools of thought of mainstream Islam:

The Shafi'is and the Hanbalis have ruled that dogs are nejus [unclean]

In the Hanafi school, the saliva of a dog is filthy, not its skin or hair.

the position of the Maliki school is that spittle/saliva of all living animals is pure (even if it is a dog). The entire living animal itself is also pure (even if it is a dog)

But even the Maalikis prohibit having a dog other than for guarding or hunting...

And the following sheds light on a Maaliki view of for what other purposes keeping dogs maybe allowed:

Islam Web - Fatwa Center - A guide dog for the blind


REF:

Islam Web - Fatwa Center - Ruling on keeping dogs in one's house

Convert: Issues with Family Dog & Learning Fiqh

What is the ruling of keeping dogs in the Shariah?

Sadl in the Maliki Madhhab



Salaam

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2009 - 10:15AM #5
docwitchy
Posts: 284

I grew up with horses, cats, and dogs. My children have a dog (well, actually my husband and I do since the kids are too little to care for it). My father has two hunting dogs, both retrievers, a chocolate and a black Labrador. This dog nonsense is just that, pure nonsense. It is one of a number of things that I was taught to laugh at quietly and just ignore, and we're teaching our children to do the same.


I'm sure some Imam would be thoroughly annoyed.


What a shame .


If Allah didn't want people and dogs to get along so well, He wouldn't have arranged it so that we did!


DUH!


Salaam,


Mariah

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2009 - 11:16AM #6
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Apr 15, 2009 -- 10:15AM, docwitchy wrote:


I grew up with horses, cats, and dogs. My children have a dog (well, actually my husband and I do since the kids are too little to care for it). My father has two hunting dogs, both retrievers, a chocolate and a black Labrador. This dog nonsense is just that, pure nonsense. It is one of a number of things that I was taught to laugh at quietly and just ignore, and we're teaching our children to do the same.


I'm sure some Imam would be thoroughly annoyed.


What a shame .


If Allah didn't want people and dogs to get along so well, He wouldn't have arranged it so that we did!


DUH!


Salaam,


Mariah




 


Salaam sis


Dogs can be kept as guard dogs, hunting dogs, and there are now contemporary opinions that they can be kept as guide dogs for the blind [and police dogs?] and possibly for reasons of helping people with other disability, etc,; the 'loyalty' trait in dogs and their ability to be trained and domesticated, is neccessary for these reasons sis, so you should consider that maybe that is why God gave the dog 'getting along with man' ability and not so that it may be kept as a pet; would God make the dog a health hazard if it was meant to be kept as a pet? :


From the medical point of view, which is our main concern here, the hazards to human health and life from keeping and playing with dogs are not to be ignored. Many people have paid a high price for their ignorance, as the tapeworm carried by dogs is a cause of chronic disease, sometimes resulting in death.


read on: Keeping Dogs: Science Supports Shari'ah - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar


 


Salaam 

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 16, 2009 - 11:48AM #7
Puurrzz
Posts: 829

Apr 15, 2009 -- 8:23AM, Abdullah. wrote:


Salaam

The Quran verry clearly obligates us to follow the Sunnah, thus the Sunnah is binding on us.


No it does not!  The quran is specific as to NOT following anything BUT the message of muhammad.  You're making hadith a partner to allah.  Shirk!




If there are any hadiths which are verified to an acceptable level [as authentic],


Then why weren't they included in the quran?  Why are there unreliable hadith?  Did allah allow un reliable hadith for a reason?  Why does the quran say it's complete but MUSLIMS say they need hadith?  Are muslims calling allah a liar or making hadith writers partners with allah?


and it dont contradict the Quran,


Total bull!  Where in the quran does it talk about dogs being impure?  Again, you choose hadith over quran.


then it is our duty to accept it,


Then you're going to hell.  The quran says it is complete....without hadith and stupid rules that are not from allah, but from dumb asst men in dresses.


for the Sunnah has been preserved by means of perpetual practice by the muslim Ummah, in memmory and in wirtten documents [the hadiths]; the former two are probably? all available in hadith too.


More bull.  Are the scholars prophets?  Can they speak for allah?  Is that why they can't agree on anything outside of the quran?  These idiots cause most of your problems but you're not smart enough to see this.

here are some hadiths [with explanations] on dogs and what the experts of islam have deduced from such evidence...:


Are parts of the quran as unreliable as hadiths?  Or, do you believe all hadith are reliable?

Before i start I'd like to say that dogs are Allah's creatures, thus should be treated with kindness:


That's what the quran says, hadith says to kill the black ones as the arabs didn't like black

Having a dog as a pet is prohibitively disliked (makruh tahriman). However, there is no harm in acquiring a hunting dog, or a guard dog to protect one's sheep or property.


Just because it's not liked by some muslims does not mean those dumb muslims should be followed....right?  Where in the quran does it say a dog can't be a pet??

It is related by Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whoever acquires a dog, with the exception of a dog for hunting, or guarding sheep, or protecting the harvest, then a large portion of his reward will be diminished every day." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim]


rediculous.  Abu Huraira was the father of kittens....meow.  He didn't even like dogs.  He was not a prophet AND one of your rightly guided ones (Umar) said he was a liar.  You think of him as a messenger from allah.  He doesn't like dogs so you don't like dogs.

Abu Talha relates (Allah be well pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "The angels do not enter a house that has a dog or a picture." [Reported by Bukhari and Muslim]


Yeah, but only muslim angels.  The fact that you don't even know why this is, proves it's stupidity.  But, keep in mind that allah didn't want to talk with muhammad, would that say allah didn't really, really like muhammad?  Allah did allow a jewish woman to poison him with a talking lamb chop.  How funny is that?  Oh yeah, that's from hadith, so it has to be true.  Muslims should not eat talking lamb chops.

Now we can see that the above hadiths are related by Bukhari and muslim; these two compliations are the most authentic, respectively, hadiths compilations; such hadiths are rigorously authenticated and they do not contradict the Quran [they wouldn't have been clasified as such if they did contradict the Quran]


So, now you are saying that allah protected the hadith of those 2 nuts?  Have you read the stupid problem causing hadiths that they have said?  Both idiots and those who follow them, are also idiotsIf it's not in the quran, it aint worth squat.



It is known that the impurity of a dog is a major impurity because if a dog drinks in a container, it is an obligation to wash it seven times one of which or the first of which with soil. The Prophet said: "If a dog drinks in any container of yours, it is an obligation to wash it seven times, the first of which with soil." [Muslim].


How do you really know thhe prophet said that?  It's not in the quran anywhere, is it?  Dogs are no more impure than a cat.  Cats lick their butts and eat rats, mice, birds and other vermin....and they bring it home to your and your children to enjoy...their deseases.  Most pregnant women don't even want a cat in the house.  But that didn't make into the un educated brains of hadith.



And here are the rulings of the four Schools of thought of mainstream Islam:

The Shafi'is and the Hanbalis have ruled that dogs are nejus [unclean]

In the Hanafi school, the saliva of a dog is filthy, not its skin or hair.

the position of the Maliki school is that spittle/saliva of all living animals is pure (even if it is a dog). The entire living animal itself is also pure (even if it is a dog)


You just proved the point.  if the so called scholars can't agree it's only because the quran has no problem with dogs.  Muslims do and they challenge allah's competency.  Shirk!

But even the Maalikis prohibit having a dog other than for guarding or hunting...


Is he a prophet?

And the following sheds light on a Maaliki view of for what other purposes keeping dogs maybe allowed:

Islam Web - Fatwa Center - A guide dog for the blind


are any of them prophets?


REF:

Islam Web - Fatwa Center - Ruling on keeping dogs in one's house

Convert: Issues with Family Dog & Learning Fiqh

What is the ruling of keeping dogs in the Shariah?

Sadl in the Maliki Madhhab


any of them prophets?  Or can they just make things up because of hearsay...hadith??



Salaam


If it's not in the quran, you can't make up your own rules.....especially dumb ones.  Please stop cos you only continue the view that muslims aren't very bright....and that muslims don't believe the quran is the final word.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 11:31PM #8
tsingbao
Posts: 223

If dogs are God's creatures, what of the Hadiths which state that Gabriel would not enter Muhammad's tent due to the presence of the animal? Gabriel could have simply stated that dogs aren't very clean or whatever, rather than vanishing without explanation and thereby creating a sensation out of it which frightened Muhammad and countless generations of Muslims to come.  All animals have issues of cleanliness, but the reason the dog is singled out is due to the disappearance of Gabriel from Muhammad's tents for several days.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 11:35PM #9
tsingbao
Posts: 223

Apr 16, 2009 -- 11:48AM, Puurrzz wrote:


 


No it does not!  The quran is specific as to NOT following anything BUT the message of muhammad.  You're making hadith a partner to allah.  Shirk!



 


There are 2 reasons for the use of the Hadiths. First, the Quran says to emulate Muhammad, and that cannot be done without consulting the reports of his companions of what Muhammad said and did. Secondly, regardless of the claims of the Quran that its complete and perfected, its in fact lacking a great many things, such as details on how to pray, details on Zakat, details on dress, details on Jihad, and so forth. Without the Sunnah there is no Islam, for the Quran itself is not enough to go on.


Considering, then, the large number of false hadiths reported by transmitters of ill or questionable repute, it means that sacred Islamic texts are every bit as flawed and contradictory as Muslims complain that the Bible is.

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2009 - 9:32AM #10
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Apr 17, 2009 -- 11:31PM, tsingbao wrote:


If dogs are God's creatures, what of the Hadiths which state that Gabriel would not enter Muhammad's tent due to the presence of the animal? Gabriel could have simply stated that dogs aren't very clean or whatever, rather than vanishing without explanation and thereby creating a sensation out of it which frightened Muhammad and countless generations of Muslims to come.  All animals have issues of cleanliness, but the reason the dog is singled out is due to the disappearance of Gabriel from Muhammad's tents for several days.




Hi tsingbo,


Indeed dogs are Gods creatures just as every animal and part of the creation was created by God, but God has kept certain rules for humans as to how to go about coexisting with different parts of the creation; as for pigs, we do not eat them, as for dogs, we do not keep them as pets; being Gods creatures does not mean that every creature has to be pure [as in filth not being in their outer or inner bodies]; we can see snakes are poisonous as are other animals, we know that rats carry deseases, etc, etc, thus we have to adopt a more compatiable relationship with the different types of animals Allah [swt] has created;


the angel/s never entered the Prophet [saw] house and that was possibly to show how humans shouldn't keep them as pets or allow them into their houses and that they should expell any dog that even comes into their houses without their knowledge. and it is possible that as angels are pure and as dogs are impure creatures, hence the angels avioid going to houses where there are dogs


Peace


ps: a Turkish friend of mines once told me how in turkey, the astray dogs of the area guard the shops and houses and keep a look out for thieves, barking at them to frighten them away, and the residents throw them food to eat; see, what a brilliant relationship the man could have with dogs with man doing his part to be mercifull to Gods creatures and the dogs activating their 'loyalty' trait in guarding the areas they live in.

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