|6 years ago :: Mar 19, 2009 - 8:28PM #1|
What is on the flag of Israel? The Star of David. Israel claims itself to be a Jewish state.
The Star of David is not a religious symbol like the Christian cross. It's origins as a symbol for Jews or Judaism dates to the Middle Ages, when it was primarily used by Christians to identify Jews.
Yes, Israel claims to be a Jewish state for the same reason that Ireland claims to be an Irish state and Saudi Arabia claims to be an Arab state and France claims to be a French state. Jews view themselves as a people first that just happens to have our own religion. A religion has a no right to territorial sovereignty (except, apparently, the Vatican). You reject the notion of Jewish peoplehood because you claim Ashkenazi Jews are all converts without any genetic link to the Middle East, and you use your own supposed genes as evidence. National identity is not determined by biology alone because it is a factor of culture. And if you must insist on a "genetic" link to the Middle East, how do you explain the origin of the Y-chromosomes of Jewish kohanim and Levites from the Levant, and the mitochondrial DNA of the majority of all Ashkenazi Jews to female lines originating in Palestine?
Israeli Jews also claim to have a deed to the Holy Land given to them by God.
Sorry, but that is not true. Below you will find the text of Israel's declaration of independence. You will notice that no mention is made anywhere of the Jewish people's right to the land being granted to them by God:
]The land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.
Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country's inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.
In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.
This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.
The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people - the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe - was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in the land of Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the comity of nations.
Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to the land of Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.
In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in the land of Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of the land of Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.
This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER THE LAND OF ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
Without that deed claim in the Bible shared by Christian Gentiles, I seriously doubt Jews would ever have convinced European and American powers to takeover Palestine.
Jews did not have to convince European and American powers to take over Palestine. First off, America had nothing to do with matter. European powers took over Palestine because Palestine was a province of the Ottoman Empire, which had the misfortune of being on the losing side of World War I. Like the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires, the Ottoman Empire was split up to create national homelands for its various subject peoples. Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and other countries in the Middle East owe their existence to this imperialist intervention by European powers.
When the territory of Palestine was awarded to British control by the League of Nations, Jews were already there, having been emigrating -- with the permission of the Ottoman rulers -- since the late 19th century. The British and the rest of the League of Nations consented to creating a Jewish State out of the doctrine of the self-determination of peoples -- which was the ideal that the Great War was allegedly fought for. Jews had been emigrating to Palestine for centuries because of the deep national attatchment ot the land and its place in the Jewish national myth and value system.
But the deed is completely phony. It is part and parcel of Jewish myths of origin that even rabbis are admitting is based on historical fictions. But Jews are using these Bible myths of origin to go kill Semitic peoples in their way of establishing Israel in place of Palestine.
The Bible is myth and legend, but the existence of the Jewish people and its origin in and long-standing attachment to the land of Israel is historical fact.
Tell that to the Palestinians. It's a crock of shite to say Jews do not make war on those who don't believe as they do and you should know better than to post that with me. Again, Israel shows a truer face of Jewish intolerance.
Please demonstrate evidence of Israelis killing Palestinians because of their beliefs.
Not true. Without Christian Europe and America backing Jewish myths of origin including the myth of God giving Abraham the deed to Canaan, Israel would never have come into existence in 1948.
Nope, sorry. That is not true, as I have demonstrated above.
The UN partition plan was a hatchet job on the sovereignty of Palestine and a slap in the face to international law forbidding foreign aggression and takeover of people's lands by outsiders.
Palestine had no sovereignty, at least not in terms of international law. It's sovereignty was granted by the League of Nations, held in trust by the British Mandate, and affirmed by the United Nations divided into two states, one for Palestinians and one for Jews. Jews accepted it, Palestinians did not. Morever, no people in Palestine had their lands take over by outsiders. Jews did not steal or seize any land from Palestinians; they bought it fair and square.
Foreign invasion and occupation of Palestine is the reality for Palestinians and all the Muslim world.
The only foreign invasion and occupation in Palestine is the West Bank. The borders of Israel within the Green Line are the Jewish people's sovereign national homeland.
It's hard not to bring up Israel when speaking of the problems of Judaism, in fact impossible because Israel is where the fatal flaws of Judaism have been revealed.
What are these "fatal flaws" of the Jewish religion?
You can argue about whether the Jewish people deserves the right to national self-determination (if the Jews do not deserve that right, then neither do the Palestinians) but you have yet to demonstrate any element of the Jewish religion that is problematic here. You cited the myth of the covenant granting the land of Israel to the Jewish people, but as I have demonstrated that myth is not the foundation of Israel's existence.
This is a Catch 22 situation because as I stated above, one cannot really get into serious critique of Judaism without mentioning Israel.
Actually, yes you can. The Jewish religion existed for 1900 years without an Israel. If there are 'fatal flaws' in the Jewish religion, you can discuss them without bringing Israel into the mix. What the flaws in the theology, ethics, and ritual life of the Jewish religion?
I do not frequent the I-P debate board as I view the I-P conflict as a direct outcome of the Jewish religion.
Your view is incorrect. If you went to the I-P debate board, you would be able to have lively conversations to your hearts content about the evils of Israel.
I only run into problems with Bnet rules when criticizing Judaism.
What other religions do you criticize?
|6 years ago :: Mar 19, 2009 - 9:14PM #2|
Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 8:35AM #3|
I ALMOST hate it when Dan makes one of his brilliant analytical posts, because I'm reduced to simply seconding 'what he said'.
But then I always learn something new, something valuable to me.
So my desire to learn has overcome my silly 'pride' once again. And that's TWO good things.
Dan, we are so very glad that you've joined the tribes : ))
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 11:22AM #4|
..."OpenOffice.org 2.3 (Win32)" />
Lightweight (and you really are one)
Nieceido was perfectly correct when he told you that the Star of David became an identifying symbol of Jews in the Middle Ages, when the Christian majority imposed various restrictions on the Jews. The symbol of Judaism is the Menorah not the Star of David.
The Star of David like other star forms has been used by many peoples at many times. You may notice that the United States uses the pentacle star on our flag. The pentacle star is also the symbol of various occult beliefs. So what?
Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. Just as Ireland is the homeland of the Irish people. Greece is the homeland of the Greek people. Armenia is the homeland of the Armenian people. Finland is the home of the Finnish people. You may wonder why I mentioned these other countries. The reason is simple. All of these countries were re-established after years of foreign domination as the result of national movements. In fact that is how most nations have been established. As historian, Barbara Tuchman noted Israel is "the only nation in the world that is governing itself in the same territory, under the same name, and with the same religion and same language as it did 3,000 years ago."
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 11:35AM #5|
The "Palestinians" are not an indigenous people. Jews are the indigenous people of the land of Israel. The Arabs invaded the area from 636 to 1095 c.e. Safed, Tiberion, Jerusalem and Hebron the major population centers from 636 through the 19th century were Jewish majority cities throghout this period.From 1880 through WW1 (this is the period we first begin to get good population studies) the majority of the population of present day Israel and the disputed territories was Jewish. Pre - Independence there were a number of Jewish Cities in what is now the disputed territories. In the so called West Bank, there was Jerusalem (all of Arab East Jerusalem was the Jewish Quarter before the war of independance) Atorot, Neve Ya'akov, Rovodin, Eintzurim, Ktar Etzion, Hebron, Kalya, Beit Ha'avara, Mauzot Yitzka among others. In Gaza there was the Jewish city of Ktar Darom. In fact though most of the regions history there were very few Arabs living in the land of Israel which was an economic, political, social and religous backwater in the Arab world. Arab immigration into Israel followed increased Jewish immigration due to increased economic opportunities which were the result of Jewish immigration.
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 11:51AM #6|
You obviously know nothing about the British mandate or the various partition plans.
In 1919 all of the British mandate which comprised all of present day Israel, the disputed territories and The Kingdom of Jordan was designated as the Jewish Homeland with the other parts of the Ottoman Empire being reserved as Arab homeland. This plan was agreed to by both the Jewish and Arab representatives at the 1919 Peace Conference following WWI
In 1922 The British divided the British Mandate two portions the Kingdom of Transjordan which comprised 2/3 of the land and the remaining mandate. This plan was agreed to by Jewish representatives but not Arab representatives.
In 1946 the United Nations further divided the remainder of the British Mandate allocating this remaining land between Jews and Arabs. Again the Jews said yes and the Arabs said no.The result was the invasion of Israel by all of the surrounding Arab nations upon the end of the mandate and the establishment of the State of Israel.
Had that invasion not occured. Israel would have been even smaller than it is today (it is about the size of New Jersey) and there would be no "Palestinian" refugee problem and no "Palestinian" question. Not a single "Palestinian" would have been displaced.
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 11:53AM #7|
Now if you would like to discuss the Judaism I would be happy to do so. But please take your ill-informed opinions on other matters to the appropriate boards.
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 12:29PM #8|
David as a symbol dates way back to the Hindus like the swastika. The Khazar kingdom used it to identify themselves as Jewish. And the Khazar kingdom is where most of your Ashkenazi genes originated. Proof of Khazar kingdom usage of the Star of David?
You do realize that a six-pointed star is a common geometical symbol and has been for thousands of years and in parts of the world that never knew Jews, don't you?
This is bs. Those examples are not examples of Religious States. Please check your own Jewish Virtual Library for the statement showing how Jews identify Israel as a "Jewish State". Judaism is not defined as secular in any dictionary I know of or by any rabbis I know of.
Of course those are not examples of religious states, because Israel is not a religious state. And of course 'Judaism' is not defined as secular because 'Judaism' means 'the Jewish religion," the religion of the Jewish people. The religion and the people are not identical.
"Jews view themselves as a people first that just happens to have our own religion." What planet are you on? Your atheistic views about what constitutes Judaism are a completely recent phenomenon and if you went back in time about 50 years ago telling your fellow Jews that Judaism is not a religion would gain you nothing but scorn.
Again, you miss the point by confusing the issue. Judaism is a religion, but the Jewish people is not identical with the religious community. Indian tribes like the Iroquois, for example (one of my great-great-grandmothers was a Seneca) have their own religions that are unique to their tribe, yet you wouldn't describe the Iroquois tribe as a religion, would you? The Jewish people created the Jewish religion. The people had to exist first for the religion to come into being.
for Jews of European and Central Asian descent to claim the Holy Land as their "homeland" is absurd on the face of it.
Why? If they are part of a transgenerational national community that traces its origin to Palestine, that has preserved the history of its connection to Palestine, and in every generation has established settlements in the land to maintain that bond, who are you to say that it's not their homeland? The Seminoles who were forcibly relocated to Oklahoma after the Seminole Wars still view Florida as their homeland. Is that absurd, too?
If every ethnic group claimed such nonsense after they've moved to other lands, become citizens of other lands, there would wars like you'd never seen before. Chinese Muslims do not claim Mecca or Saudi Arabia as their homeland, why should Ashkenazis have that right that no other ethnic group has? To claim it just goes to prove Jews believe themselves special and above normal rules of social integration.
Irrelevant and illogical. First, it was only relatively recent in history, the late 18th and 19th centuries, that Jews were allowed to become citizens of some Western European and North American states. Second, Jews have always considered themselves a people in their own right; Chinese Muslims consider themselves Chinese who practice the Muslim faith. As for the "normal rules of social integration," historically those rules have been imposed by conquering powers on subaltern peoples forcing them to "integrate" and abandon their identity against their will. Is it wrong for a people to want to preserve their culture and identity?
Niciendo, go to Israel and ask the settlers there why they are there. You post national propaganda and not what most Israelis themselves believe.
Most Israelis are secular and non-religious. Also, the document I quoted is the official constituent document of the State of Israel. It is what Israel itself believes about itself.
There are people who believe that the United States was intended to be a Christian nation and that God has given it to evangelicals to make a Christian kingdom on earth, but our founding documents institute a secular republic. Which one is correct and why do you feel Israel is different?
Without that deed claim in the Bible shared by Christian Gentiles, I seriously doubt Jews would ever have convinced European and American powers to takeover Palestine.
Wrong. President Truman pushed through American support for the vote for partitioning Palestine.
Irrelevant. Truman came along long, long after Jews had already established themselves in the land, long after control of the territory passed from the Ottoman Turks to the League of Nations, long after the League resolved to create a Jewish homeland.
That attachment is based on Jewish myths of origin, i.e. the deed to Canaan given to Abraham.
No. That attachment is based on the 1000 years of Jewish life in the land, which did not end even after the defeat of the Bar Kochba revolt, and the connections -- both physical and emotional -- between the Diaspora communities and those still resident in the land in the subsequent centuries. Sorry, but no matter how many times you repeat the same lie it doesn't magically become true.
Of far longer standing is the fact of non-Jewish Semitic peoples living in Palestine. You don't seem to know the history of Canaan and like many Zionists believe the people of the ancient Canaanite kingdoms somehow just faded away.
On the contrary, you appear ignorant of the history. The Jewish people originated from those Canaanite peoples. It began as an alliance among the subaltern classes in Canaanite city-states and semi-nomadic Canaanite shepherds in the highlands against the feudal vassals of Imperial Egypt (the ruling class of the Canaanite city-states and the Philistine mercenaries). These allied tribes, who formed a confederation called "Israel" whose people intermarried and interbred with the other native peoples of the land. The Jebusites, Amorites, Hivites, Girgashites etc. never went anywhere: they became "Israel."
The fact is these people inhabited and controlled Canaan/Palestine for a great many centuries, from the ancient Canaanite kingdoms to the Arab Palestinian populations that took control after the Romans kicked the Jews out of Palestine.
Peoplehood is a cultural phenomenon, a matter of consciousness. Where are the Babylonians and Assyrians? Their cultures have faded even though their descendants no doubt are still around. Their descendants, however, do not view themselves as Babylonians and Assyrians but as Syrians and Lebanese and Iraqis and Kuwaitis. After the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, all of the native peoples of Palestine were displaced and lost to history except for the Israelites, the Judeans, who preserved their identity (although 10 of the 12 tribes of their confederacy were scattered and lost).
The Romans did not "kick the Jews out of Palestine." Many fled, many were enslaved, but many also stayed. The Romans did not have the ability to deport entire populations. Moreover, the Arab Muslim conquests did not occur until the 7th century, so there is a sizable gap in your history.
Israel as an independent kingdom had a comparative very short existence. From Canaan's loss of control due to defeat by Egyptian armies around 1200 to 1000 BC when the Israelites moved into the power vacuum created to their ouster by the Assyrians, then brief reinstatement by the Persians (ironic is that!) to Roman control via their puppet regimes in Palestine then to total exile by the Romans in the 2nd century AD. Arab Muslim populations have lived in Palestine for the past 1800 years. Jewish claim to that land is mostly based on Jewish myth of ownership and control of a land they comparatively only briefy did own and control.
So, if I kick you out of your home, I can keep it provided enough time elapses?
Are you seriously morally myopic? Israelis believe they have a right to get rid of the indigenous Palestinian population Because that population is not Jewish. If they were Jewish, Israelis would welcome them with open arms instead armed aggression and occupation because Jews are not happy with Palestinians as Muslim neighbors.
Can you cite any Israeli government policy to get rid of the indigineous Palestinian population because the population is not Jewish? How do you explain the 20% of citizens of the State of Israel who are Arab, 80% of whom are Muslims?
Nope, you just gave Zionist propaganda that uses national state language that does not reference itself back to the Torah deed to Abraham that the common Israeli person firmly believes entitles him or her to the land of Palestine.
And you are just giving anti-Zionist propaganda. The common Israeli person is secular and non-religious and believes that he or she is entitled to the land of Palestine for the secular national reasons I have cited before.
This is pure Zionist propaganda and is completely immoral. Does it not register in your zeal to justify foreign invasion that NO Palestinian was ever consulted or voted upon the decision by European and Americans who controlled the UN in 1947/48?
The Jewish presence in Palestine is not the result of "foreign invasion." Sorry.
Do you believe in democracy at all or is Might Makes Right, the slogan of fascism, yours and Zionists war cry against humanity?
That seems to be the argument you are making.
If foreigners from lands thousands of miles away from America decided to let Chinese have America, would you just lie down and accept this fate? I don't think so, yet Zionists want the world to allow them to invade and crush out of existence Palestinian peoples.
If it was determined that the United States should be given back to the Native Americans, I don't think I would have a leg to stand on to oppose such a deal.
Zionists want to brand resistance fighters to this foreign invasion and occupation "terrorists" as if invasion and occupation by foreigners from Europe and America were totally acceptable movements of people.
So, it's OK to deliberately target civilians if you're "resisting foreign invasion?"
Zionists are insane and that's why Israel remains a morally-challenged state and will until democracy rids the country of Jewish religious control.
So, in your version of democracy, everyone gets a vote except the Jews?
As for Jews buying their land of Israel that also is Zionist propaganda that the Jewish National Fund records reveal to be quite false. The Jewish National Fund, the outfit that oversees the purchase of Palestinian lands shows around 6% of the land actually purchased. the vast majority of Palestinian land has been confiscated from Palestinian owners driven off through early Zionist terror campaigns and the 1967 war.
I'm sorry, but the facts do not support this.
Again, you are morally blind to history of Palestine and the invasion of Europeans and European-American Jews of the land occupied by Palestinians, the great majority for well over a thousand years and even in 1947 the 70% majority.
How is it an "invasion" if the Powers That Be allow you to move in? Moreover, the original partition plan, that 70% majority would have had their own state.
Separation of humanity into two opposed groups, one good, one bad in the eyes of God. Jesus corrected this great error which is the basic reason Christianity is not Judaism
Sorry, but that is not true. Jews are not "good" in the eyes of God and Gentiles are not "bad" in the eyes of God. All human beings are created in the image of God and Jews are commanded to love all human beings -- both their neighbors and the strangers.
Judaism attempts to divide the house of humanity forgetting all about how God found all human beings, "good, very good, indeed."
In case you didn't know, that declaration by God that human beings are all "good, very good, indeed" comes from the Jewish scripture. And the rabbis taught that all human beings are brothers because we share the same father, and no man can claim his blood is redder than another's.
The second great spiritual error is the Jewish misidentification of God as an Alien Being, unknowable, incomprehensible, foreign to the human mind. Jesus brought back the true identification of God as Father with humanity made in Their image, made male and female which of course means God is also Mother. This wisdom was lost with the monotheistic makeover of the Divine Assembly which represented God as a Holy Family, a pluriform monotheism instead of God whittled down into the form and function of an army commander, a god of war, a Lord of Hosts. Where there is a Father there logically must be a Mother, a Son, a Daughter. Abrahamic monotheism is not true to the identity of God which is why Christianity reintroduced the ancient Hebrew relationship of Yahweh as Son to EL Elyon.
I guess you somehow missed the parts of the Jewish scriptures where God is described as a loving father, a nurturing mother, who hears the cry of the poor and comforts the afflicted and is near to all who call upon Him...
Yes, it is Without the myth no rabbi would have ever pushed for a Jewish homeland. Even Jews know that populations come and go through any habitable area's historic development so only God giving Jews a virtual DEED to the land of Canaan would be reason enough to push to claim that deed.
Sorry, but here's another area where your knowledge is lacking. Rabbis didn't push for a Jewish homeland until that homeland actually existed. Rabbis were either hostile or indifferent to Zionism until after WW2. And this "deed" you keep talking about is not the basis for Israel's existence. That the Jewish people originated in Palestine and there created their culture and identity, and have preserved that connection throughout the generations is the basis for Israel's existence, not religious myth.
If I went there I would tie the problems of modern Israel right back to the religion of Judaism and would be told to take that discussion back this board!
Have you never questioned whether your idea that the problems of Israel are traceable to the Jewish religion might not be correct?
|6 years ago :: Mar 20, 2009 - 8:02PM #9|
This is another thread I am locking for the time being, while we review it. Apologies for any inconvenience. Any questions should be directed to firstname.lastname@example.org .
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