Post Reply
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Scholars disown the "Historical Jesus"
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 8:22AM #1
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,841
In an interesting example of the fickleness of academia, serious secular scholars are blasting The Jesus Seminar as useless and bankrupt:

But the Jesus who emerged from these scholarly travails was so diminished that—as I wrote in a FREE INQUIRY article in 1993—he could not exist apart from his makers: “The Jesus of the [Jesus Seminar] is a talking doll with a questionable repertoire of thirty-one sayings. Pull a string and he blesses the poor.”


Introducing the Jesus Project


Since then I have continued to learn, and I am now in the position of saying that Norman Perrin's book might be fantastic, but it is bankrupt, as is the Jesus Seminar Jesus. This Jesus is nothing more than a constructed person who exists only in our imaginations. I say this not because I am a myther. In fact, I think that the myther position cannot be maintained, because parallels between Jesus' myth and other ancient myths tell us nothing about whether or not he lived as a real person. It only tells us that ancient people cast their memories of Jesus into mythological narratives and schema that were part of their culture and minds. Rather I say this because I have come to realize over the years that the methodology and the assumptions of the methodology that were used to construct Perrin's Jesus and the Jesus Seminar Jesus are bankrupt.


(Emphasis mine)

Forbidden Gospels

So it turns out that the various searches for the Historical Jesus have told us precisely nothing about Jesus, who He was, and what He taught.

So perhaps now we Traditional Christians won't have to put up with guff from Progressives about how they know Who the "Real Jesus" is, and how we are all ahistorical while Progressives know the real deal.

Progressive Christianity is as bankrupt as the Jesus Seminar.

-------------------------

Now the Jesus Project is going to prove (objectively of course) that Jesus never existed.  What are the Progressives going to do about that?  How can Progressives claim to be "a friend of Jesus" when the Jesus they are a friend of is nothing but a construct of a handful of modern scholars which exists only in their imaginations?

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 6:06PM #2
Kevinponeill
Posts: 802

SeraphimR wrote:

This is wonderful news! We will have more sketches of Jesus, drawn from alternative methodologies, as they weight and prioritize the data through their models![/color] It's analogous to another biography on Lincoln. Each picture provide a fresh perspective to consider! The Jesus Seminar is a small group of scholars. Other widely read and respected scholars such as Raymond Brown, John Meiers, Bart Erhman, and J. Louis Martyn to name a few are examples of scholars who never associated beyond the Society of Biblical Literature. I wrote a paper entitled "The Gift of Doubt" pondering what it would mean for the Christian Faith if it could be discovered that Jesus was less than the wonderful man we believer him to be. The same analysis would apply if in fact Jesus was not a historical person. It is posted on my Beliefnet Journal. Here is the link to the Journal:

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 7:21PM #3
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,841

KevinPONeill wrote:

This is wonderful news! We will have more sketches of Jesus, drawn from alternative methodologies, as they weight and prioritize the data through their models!


The point is that none of these methodologies give a "portrait of Jesus" but are merely constructs of the historians.

It's analogous to another biography on Lincoln. Each picture provide a fresh perspective to consider!


I think it might be more akin to another biography on, say, Gilgamesh.  Might be interesting reading, but it is completely the fabrication of the author.

I wrote a paper entitled "The Gift of Doubt" pondering what it would mean for the Christian Faith if it could be discovered that Jesus was less than the wonderful man we believer him to be. The same analysis would apply if in fact Jesus was not a historical person. It is posted on my Beliefnet Journal. Here is the link to the Journal: http://community.beliefnet.com/journals/sblog_id/9092


I've read you journal entry, and it seems you would consider the ahistoricity of Jesus to be devastating, and that you cannot believe "that human projection alone would cause such a life transforming legacy."

Well, here we agree. (Finally!)  But it looks like your going to have to base your belief on something other than scholarship, as secular scholars seem to have no problem believing that human projection alone is sufficient.

But the bottom line is that Progressives won't be able to push Traditionalists around using secular scholarship.  We'll both be in the same boat vis a vis secular scholarship.  Your religion will be considered just as off the wall as mine.

Don't worry.  Its not so bad as all that.  You just have to divest yourself of some not so impressive "authorities" whose ideas are the product of academic jealousy, political intrigues, and ego.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 7:21PM #4
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,841

KevinPONeill wrote:

This is wonderful news! We will have more sketches of Jesus, drawn from alternative methodologies, as they weight and prioritize the data through their models!


The point is that none of these methodologies give a "portrait of Jesus" but are merely constructs of the historians.

It's analogous to another biography on Lincoln. Each picture provide a fresh perspective to consider!


I think it might be more akin to another biography on, say, Gilgamesh.  Might be interesting reading, but it is completely the fabrication of the author.

I wrote a paper entitled "The Gift of Doubt" pondering what it would mean for the Christian Faith if it could be discovered that Jesus was less than the wonderful man we believer him to be. The same analysis would apply if in fact Jesus was not a historical person. It is posted on my Beliefnet Journal. Here is the link to the Journal: http://community.beliefnet.com/journals/sblog_id/9092


I've read you journal entry, and it seems you would consider the ahistoricity of Jesus to be devastating, and that you cannot believe "that human projection alone would cause such a life transforming legacy."

Well, here we agree. (Finally!)  But it looks like your going to have to base your belief on something other than scholarship, as secular scholars seem to have no problem believing that human projection alone is sufficient.

But the bottom line is that Progressives won't be able to push Traditionalists around using secular scholarship.  We'll both be in the same boat vis a vis secular scholarship.  Your religion will be considered just as off the wall as mine.

Don't worry.  Its not so bad as all that.  You just have to divest yourself of some not so impressive "authorities" whose ideas are the product of academic jealousy, political intrigues, and ego.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 12:09PM #5
Stardove
Posts: 15,552

SeraphimR wrote:

.But the bottom line is that Progressives won't be able to push Traditionalists around using secular scholarship.  We'll both be in the same boat vis a vis secular scholarship.  Your religion will be considered just as off the wall as mine.


It seems to me Progressive Christians are not the ones pushing at least at this forum.  We attempt to live by the example the Christ is said to have lived by.  The spark of divinity  inside everyone allows the birth of the Divine and PCs to have their own Christmas experience.  IMO.

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove
Problems? Send a message to Beliefnet_community

The words I speak and write carry energy and power, so I choose them with care and clear purpose. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 2:45PM #6
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,841

stardove wrote:

It seems to me Progressive Christians are not the ones pushing at least at this forum.  We attempt to live by the example the Christ is said to have lived by.  The spark of divinity  inside everyone allows the birth of the Divine and PCs to have their own Christmas experience.  IMO.


The question here is: who said that Christ lived this way?  Maybe He didn't, and the example is the product of quite ordinary men with their own agenda.  Like what the PC accuse the Council of Nicea of doing.

Would you follow a modern construction with no historical validity?  Or is the historicity of Jesus' example important?

Kevin, your essay on doubt says the historicity is important, but you now seem to be backpedaling.  I am having a hard time understanding your Trinity essay.  Is your "Christ event" really just some 1st century Palestinians having dreams about their executed rabbi?

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 3:24PM #7
Stardove
Posts: 15,552

SeraphimR wrote:

The question here is: who said that Christ lived this way?  Maybe He didn't, and the example is the product of quite ordinary men with their own agenda.  Like what the PC accuse the Council of Nicea of doing.

Would you follow a modern construction with no historical validity?  Or is the historicity of Jesus' example important?

Kevin, your essay on doubt says the historicity is important, but you now seem to be backpedaling.  I am having a hard time understanding your Trinity essay.  Is your "Christ event" really just some 1st century Palestinians having dreams about their executed rabbi?


The Bible gives us one story of the history of Jesus.  Was there really a historical Jesus?    Who can say for sure?  But the message I take from the Bible is one of love.  Love God and love one another.  There is history of the Council of Nicea deciding what written word would or would not go into the Bible as presented to us.

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove
Problems? Send a message to Beliefnet_community

The words I speak and write carry energy and power, so I choose them with care and clear purpose. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2009 - 9:34AM #8
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,841

stardove wrote:

The Bible gives us one story of the history of Jesus.  Was there really a historical Jesus?    Who can say for sure?  But the message I take from the Bible is one of love.  Love God and love one another.  There is history of the Council of Nicea deciding what written word would or would not go into the Bible as presented to us.


Well, the Church can say for sure, having been around since He walked the Earth.  But stirring up controversy is good for business like selling books and giving lectures.

And actually, the Council of Nicea didn't decide the Canon of the Bible.  The Canon was a sort of consensus position finalized at the Synod of Carthage.

But if you like the message of the Bible, you can thank them.  None of the Gnostic Gospels speak of love at all.  Including the Gospel of Thomas.

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 2:29PM #9
Starcomet
Posts: 414

Feb 12, 2009 -- 9:34AM, SeraphimR wrote:

stardove wrote:

The Bible gives us one story of the history of Jesus. Was there really a historical Jesus? Who can say for sure? But the message I take from the Bible is one of love. Love God and love one another. There is history of the Council of Nicea deciding what written word would or would not go into the Bible as presented to us.


Well, the Church can say for sure, having been around since He walked the Earth. But stirring up controversy is good for business like selling books and giving lectures. And actually, the Council of Nicea didn't decide the Canon of the Bible. The Canon was a sort of consensus position finalized at the Synod of Carthage. But if you like the message of the Bible, you can thank them. None of the Gnostic Gospels speak of love at all. Including the Gospel of Thomas.



Well the gospel of Thomas did have some sayings of love and unity.

Quick Reply
Cancel
6 years ago  ::  Mar 12, 2009 - 2:33PM #10
Starcomet
Posts: 414

For all we know Jesus could have been made up. I do not see how one rabbi could cause such a movement without some members putting in miracles and other accounts to make him sound holy.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 2  •  1 2 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook