gangajal,

let me clarify. Neither heaven nor hell are important for theistic Vedantists. Their goal is beyond both of these places. But since they accept sastra, they accept both as real, although temporary (this is different from 'illusory') and thus not worthy to stay.

Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.vrindavan-dham.com

Gangajal: You keep stopping right at the border - you keep saying hell but won't venture into details - it must be something worse than what happens on earth? What does that mean? You are afraid to go into details because both of us know the answer - it is what I have been talking about

JM8: I am sorry I offended you by referring to idolatry - I don't mean any offense but when I think of Idolatry in my opinion it is something, whether an idol or an image or a book, that comes between us and God. To me you lay so much stress on shastras, that it seems you are incapable of thinking anything beyond them. If it is not in the shastras it doesn't exist. The pope is an idolator because he says God can only be a man. If God came before him as a woman, the pope would throw her out.

But both you and Gangajal almost have it - you mentioned that Hell & Heaven are temporary - this is what I meant by saying trying to marry Karma with Hell. Why temporary? What is the usefulness of a temporary heaven or hell? We learn our lessons right here and now on this earth - what is the use of a flesh-happy heaven and a physical beating?

Another example: When I was a kid beating kids in class was not uncommon - a school in a small remote village of India. I fortunately was one of the good kids and escaped any kind of beating until one day. This teacher kept trying to teach us this math problem but we could not get it. This guy finally gave into frustration, took his cane and gave everyone of us a lashing on our backs. Did we then get the math problem? Not at all! I ask you, besides working out the teacher's personal frustrations, what did the caning achieve? Is that what God does in hell? Work out his personal frustrations on people?

Again my I remind you of the different types of religions - King religions need a heaven and hell. God made in the image of a King - A king rewards his loyalists and will harm those who are disloyal - and so a heaven and hell! These also are used to get converts, in a crude way in my opinion, join us you go straight to heaven. Leave us you are going to hell!

But ours is a Parent/Teacher religion - A Teacher derives no satisfaction from seeing one of his students fail - it is also her fault. The lesson has not been imparted properly. A good Teacher uses patience and understanding to impart lessons, not crude brutality.

Please see the benefits of not having hell - A kind, loving God who does not torture or brutalize her devotees. We are being given a great Gift, do not throw it away.

Gangajal,

the term 'heaven' in the Western terminology is rather unclear. My comparative study tells me the Biblical heaven is Vaikuntha/Goloka. Yet later many people considered heaven as a place of enjoyment with their ancestors without God and this is basically the idea of pitriloka or svargaloka.

excerpts from Garuda Purana (Vishnu speaking to Garuda):

2.10.74 How the soul gets a new body, hear from me. The soul without body is like a flame without fire. It is about a thumb in size.
2.10.75-77 After leaving the earthly body, the soul obtains an airy body. Like a caterpillar who lifts up the back feet only when the position of the front feet becomes firm, the soul leaves the previous body only when the airy body is available to enjoy.
2.10.81 O bird, this type of body the deceased can have out of the pinda (rice-ball) offered to him.
2.10.82 Whatever pinda the sons or kins give him during the ten days, the same unites the Vayuja body with the pindaja body.
2.10.83 If the pindaja body be not there, the Vayuja body suffers. ...
2.10.86 Just now, I have told you that it [the soul] obtains the airy body immediately. Now, hear about the body it obtains belatedly.
2.10.87 After some time [2.30.30 - 1 year], the jiva when reaches Yamaloka, obtains the pindaja body.
2.10.88-89 As directed by Citragupta, he suffers in hell. Having suffered tortures there, he is born in low species. ...


HinduGuy,

you try to discuss something you don't know about and moreover, you present 'how it should  be' view.

> To me you lay so much stress on shastras, that it seems you are incapable of thinking anything beyond them.

No. Simply put, sastra is pramana, our thinking is not. Our material mind can't conceive of non-material reality. Arguing 'how is could/should be' has no value.

> If it is not in the shastras it doesn't exist.

No at all. It's said that sastras on earth are just abbreviations of what is available on higher lokas.

> The pope is an idolator because he says God can only be a man. If God came before him as a woman, the pope would throw her out.

Are you a Shakta that you dislike an idea of a male God? I don't agree with your view, given the reverence to Mother Mary in Catholic Church.

> What is the usefulness of a temporary heaven or hell? We learn our lessons right here and now on this earth - what is the use of a flesh-happy heaven and a physical beating?

Finally a good question. The answer is: there's no real use of these places for us, nonmaterial beings. Only when we decide to leave our nonmaterial happy home where God is our parent, friend and lover, we're on our own and reap the results of our karma in the material world. When the child runs away from home (free will), the parent can't protect it from the suffering. Yet God is still with us as Paramatma in our heart, ready to help us when we don't want to suffer anymore.
Until that time our good karma leads us up, bad karma down, by average karma we remain on earth. (BG 14.18) This goes on as long as we don't want to return to our home. In Kali yuga the process (yuga dharma) is harinam sankirtan, glorification of the holy names of Vishnu/Krishna. It's the easiest of yuga dharmas in all four yugas since Kali yuga is dharma-wise the most degraded age.


Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.vrindavan-dham.com

HinduGuy,

> Hell is an idea, heaven is an idea, karma & rebirth are all ideas - none of it is proven.

They're proved by g-s-s. They'are also proven to those who experienced, even to you. And you can right now research their views and ask around. I gave you clues. Or you can close your eyes and ears and keep repeating "not proven, not proven". Choice is yours.

> The idea of a God is a pretty simple one.

No way. He's much more than we can ever conceive. Arjuna was stunned seeing Lord's visvarupa, etc.

> I do agree with you that we "suffer" or to use my word, learn the consequences of our acts, but my point is that we do it here, on this earth. Not in some imaginary place "up there" where physical torture is administered,

Accepting karma only on earth makes no sense. Without karmic continuity life after life you get "one-life" paradigm of Abrahamic traditions you so dislike.

> I give the credit to Karma - Karma forced me to take a look at my actions. I am not being forced to do so - something you say will happen in hell, God will impose her viewpoint by torturing someone. Karma asks you to become a better person thru self-reflection. Hell says I am going to beat some sense into you, which way do you think is better?

What about people who never ate meat since they feel repulsion from it from childhood while being forced to eat it by their non-veg family? Experiences from previous lives.

The self-reflection is there in NDEs. Most Western people report it as a life movie when they realized their mistakes and good acts. In another setting, Yamaraja makes it known to us. Quite some Western people met Yamaraja as well.

Some people are not capable of this self-reflection in this life and live adharmic lives. How to convince them they're doing wrong? Humanism doesn't work for them. They have to be restrained and corrected otherwise they're a threat to society.
People who suffered in hell for some time but were resuscitated say the hell is full of such incorrigible people. Even while suffering they curse, hate and try to do something nasty.
Pseudohumanists would prefer them to run around free...

> The point to think about is that hell sounds like such an absured place - we know much more about the universe than in the olden days - to think that this bearded guy is running a place where people are tied down and whiplashed so that they pay for some sort of wrong they have committed sounds absurd.

Why do you accept kid's tales and not the logic of g-s-s?

How do we know how many dimensions are there in this universe, inaccessible to our present material senses?


Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.vrindavan-dham.com

> Does this seem right?

Let's say there's a guy waiting for execution. He sits peacefully in his cell. So without knowing his history of a serial killer you can ask the same question: Is it right to execute him?

Karmic reaction may last quite some lifetimes. This baby could have been a slaughtered animal in a previous life and now his situation improved. Next life he may be born in a broken family and growing up neglected. And so on. All the 'blessings' of Kali yuga available.

"Thus the jiva soul, forgetting his constitutional position as the eternal
servant of Krsna, perfect and pure, becomes a slave of maya. In this
condition he roams eternally in the material world from one body to another.
He goes through many births, sometimes born as a king, sometimes as an
ordinary citizen, sometimes as a brahmana and sometimes as a sudra (a menial
laborer). Sometimes he is suffering, and sometimes he is happy. Sometimes he
is born as an insect, and sometimes he goes to heaven. Then sometimes he has
to come down to this earth again, and sometimes he has to go to hell.
Sometimes he is born as a demigod, sometimes as a demon, sometimes as the
master and other times the servant." (Prema-vivarta 6.3-5)


Hare Krishna

"This Krishna Consciousness is a science to understand what is the difference between a dead body and a living body". (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

Your servant, bh. Jan

www.veda.harekrsna.cz
www.vrindavan-dham.com