ag123 wrote:

NEWTONIAN:
Thanks for asking. Incurable cancer
Take Care

Incurable cancer – ouch. Many of us on these forums are dealing with illnesses or diseases, which is one of the reasons many have so much free-time on our hands and nothing else to do. I am not one to speak presumptuously regarding what you consider to be terminal… but we know that everything impossible for men is possible for God. I was once hospitalized with a terminal disease, 12 years ago they found 3 large abscesses in my liver. It took them 2 days to find the problem, and had one of them burst during that time, I would have died within minuets.

Fortunately for me, they found the abscesses, aspirated them with foot long needles while I flopped around in an MRI machine, and afterwards put me on an Antibiotic pump for a month. My doctors saved my life… for which I am grateful.

I wish I could say that my pastor came to pray with me and that I was instantaneously healed… but that was not the case… he didn’t even come to see me. I was fearful my first night in the hospital, I felt like I was going to die and was afraid that my sweating would cause me to catch a chill and that I would start shaking and convulsing again like when I first collapsed. But after praying to God for help, I found that my fear was replaced with His peace. After that night, my 10 day stay in the hospital was one of the most wonderful times in my life – spiritually speaking. God was with me in profound ways, I felt His presence and assurance. It was not so much that I felt I was going to live, as much as it was – live or die, my life is in His hands. The fact is, the only reason I had for wanting to live was for the sake of my family – my kids were still very young. 

And so here I am today, 12 years down the road from a brush with death. I feel like I am living on borrowed time. Why God did not heal me of my infection? – I do not know. Why He blessed the doctors and gave them the knowledge and skill necessary to restore my health? – I do not know. Who paid my $23,000 in hospital and doctor bills after I got well? – I don’t know. But God knows and that is all I need to know.

Over the last 12 years I spent much of my free time doing what I can do for our Lord. I figure that I spent the first 40 years of my life, working, loving my wife and raising kids, and that now its time to serve God with the time I have left. I trust that you feel the same, otherwise you would probably not be on this forum. I hope my story has encouraged you – it is good to know that weather we live or die – we belong to the Lord. Death is not the end of us – it is merely the door to an amazing new life in the presence of God and Christ and our loved one’s who have gone before us.

May God cause His face to shine upon you and give you His peace. May He be with your loved ones, and be near to them. May He fill your heart with His assurance and grant you the courage to face these days and what lays ahead. Know that the path of the just is as the dawning, that grows brighter until it reaches perfect day. And may the Lord our God bless and keep you, may He take you by the hand and bring you with joy into His eternal glory. Or – if He wants you to continue serving Him here on earth – may the hand of Jesus touch and heal you, restore your health, and grant you the desire of your heart – in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

~ Theophilus

Newtonian wrote:

I was not sure if theon was an error on your part or not.  I had only had the time to check Griesbach and Westcott & Hort Greek texts and was not sure if perhaps another Greek text had theon instead of theos.  Yes, it is the same word – Greek has many forms for specific words for various reasons (declensions, etc.).

Why assume I had some negative reason for bringing it up?  I trust you realize I prefer friendly discussion over debate.

That explains it. It is always easier to suspect someone’s motive than give them the benefit of the doubt. My apologies.

Was Strong a devout Trinitarian?  I expected that – and if so, then it is to his credit that he admits theos without the definite article means “a deity.”

Of course he was – few reference works get to have the standing Stong’s works have being of questionable doctrinal bias. There have been many great Bible scholars whose works are all but unknown because they had a doctrinal ax to grind… Rotherham, Darby, Panan… etc.

Now I had already posted about the predicate nominative being before the verb and subject and cited a number of examples in my earlier posts where all translators (or virtually all – depending on which verse) agree the noun is still indefinite and insert “a” in English. Rather than posting all of those examples again – it would be nice if you would actually respond on the examples I already posted. They were mostly in the book of John, btw.

I operate on a very simple level when it comes to what makes a good translation. First, I look at the Greek, analyze the prepositions, the verb tenses, and then look at the literal word for word translation from Greek to English. Then I try to arrange the literal word for word rendering into grammatically correct English – which is one of my many reasons for not liking the NWT. I use great flexibility with conjunctions like KAI, noting how it is often used to contrast as well as to continue a thought. When it comes to Theos and how it is translated when not accompanied by the definite article – I agree with Strong’s Definitions. Theos, when not accompanied with the definite article, means a god when translated into English – with one proviso… when not being used as a descriptive predicate. 

The translations I posted: NW; KJV;AT;NIV;RS; TEV – all insert “a” before the noun in question in the following verses:  Mark 6:49; 11:32; John 4:19; 6:70; 8:44 (twice); 9:17; 10:1,13,33; 12:6

But none of them even use the word Theos, and in all cases these passages would not make any sense if “a” was not added. Case in point… John 6:70-71 "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"  Lets leave out the “a” and see how that works. "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is devil?" The (a) indefinite article is necessary to complete the sentence. But in John 1:1, adding an “a” changes the entire meaning – and that should be a HUGH clue that these two examples are not even remotely similar.

Just for fun, let’s replace diabolos with theos and see what we get. "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a god?" Well that was certainly not the case, but you can see the huge difference in meaning if we were to leave out the “a.” Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is God? 

Of course this verse doesn’t even have a similar structure to John 1:1… which literally translates as, “and God was the Word.” God having the emphasis while at the same time being used in a descriptive predicate to describe the Word.

“In [the, a] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with “the supreme Divinity,” and the Word was “a deity.”” – John 1:1, with Strong’s definitions of theos.

I’ve provided my own translation too…

In the beginning (of all things) the Word already existed. The Word existed together with God (i.e. the Father) and the Word was God – by nature.

My translation takes into account the subject matter and the way Theos is being used in the context, which is why I did not supply an indefinite article. Strong’s definition of Theos works just fine in other contexts. 

“1.  The Word already existed in the beginning – NO ORIGIN IMPLIED – the WORD was NOT CREATED.”

Note NW has “the” in brackets: [the].  Check the Greek.  There is no definite article before “beginning.”  It could also correctly be translated “In a beginning.”  In other words, in the beginning of what?  Parallel to Genesis 1:1?  What do you believe on this?

Not so, firstly Archee is uttered in the plural – In beginnings > this being an intensified form, Jews did that a lot, being accustomed to the Aramaic and Hebrew plural of majesty. Secondly, see Genesis 1: 1 in the LXX which used the exact same words… John 1:1 can only be a reference to the beginning of all things.

Jesus was with Jehovah in the account about the beginning of God’s way and achievements in Proverbs 8 – I believe this is what John is referring to – if you disagree please explain why.

I would put it like this… Jesus was with His Father. And Prov 8:22-31, speaking in linear terms talks about the begetting of the Son of God.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth; while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,  when He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters would not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him, rejoicing in His inhabited world, and my delight was with the sons of men.”

You should know that Trinitarians do not shy away from Proverbs 8 its a primary text used to prove to Jews that Jehovah God was not alone, and that this personification of Wisdom actually foreshadowed the manifestation of the Word made flesh… who came to His own but His own did not receive Him. 

John 1 does not confirm or deny Jesus’ origin

– wiggle room.

Trinitarians say that by not confirming an origin for the Word, John’s affirmation that the Word was with God in the beginning implies His eternal uncreated nature, and I concur.

2.  We agree Jesus was with the Father – do you agree Jehovah is the Father?

I agree that God the Father is Jehovah… I also believe the name of God can be and is rightly applied to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit in certain Biblical contexts.

3.  We do not agree on this – I believe the definition of theos here is the one Strong indicates is normal for theos without the definite article not only for that simple reason but also because that is the definition of theos Jesus used when defending his deity in John 10:31-36 when he quoted Psalms 82:6 where Jehovah calls human judges “gods” – Hebrew elohim – compare Psalms 82:1.

Simple, when Jesus defended his deity he used the correct definition of theos for his deity  used in the specific verse he emphasized as true.

Jesus was not defending His deity here in John 1:1 > John was making an affirmation of faith. Which is why I do not consider this to be a “normal” usage of the word Theos without the definite article. The following quotation contains a few passages in the NT where the word THEOS is used without the definite article… if you can build your case from them, I’d love to see it.

Acts 12:22-23 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”

Acts 28:6 “However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.”

Or how about this passage… where the NWT inserts the definite article where there isn’t one in the Greek.

Jude 25 To [the] only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

To be consistent they should have translated it like this… “To a only god our Savior…”

~ Theophilus