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5 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 4:05PM #21
ag123
Posts: 339
NEWTONIAN:
Thanks for asking. Incurable cancer
Take Care
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 4:45PM #22
dell12345
Posts: 1,553
JWs believe that Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God (See also Acts 13:33 uses begotten), our King and Lord and Savior, the Christ, the Word, and was born of virgin birth thru Mary. Jesus is the Son of God who became flesh. Jesus was a god who eventually became Mighty God as stated in John 1:1 and Isa 9:6. Notice FUTURE tense in Isa 9:6 (will/shall).


Jehovah is called “God of gods” , it doesn’t mean that the other gods do not exist.Just like saying “King of kings” the  other kings  do exist. If you also say that “Jesus is my best friend”, it doesn’t’ mean that the “Father” Jehovah, and other human friends are false friends.

    Why is Jehovah called “God of gods” acc to Deut 10:17? If the “gods” are all false gods, then are you saying that  Jehovah is the God of “false” gods?   Someone cannot be called God of “gods” if these other “gods” do not exist same as saying King of kings if other kings do not exist.

The Bible doesn’t support the idea of Trinity nor says that Jesus is the Almighty God.

The Bible also doesn’t use the terms  “God-Man” TriUne God, Trinity, Three Persons in One God , Three in One God , TriUne characters of God, and other terminologies that  Trinitarians invented. Why do you think you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible?  The reason why you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible is the same reason why you can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible.


Isa 44:6 states that there is no other God besides him.
- This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

This means that there is no other God, who is Almighty, and the Repurchaser. Notice the phrase it used, “I AM” and “ME”. DO you use the phrases “I am” and “ME” for THREE PERSONS? The phrase “I am” is not used for THREE PERSONS and to ONLY ONE PERSON.

Because it uses the phrase "I am" AND “ME” and “NO GOD BESIDES ME” in Isa 44:6, so there is no room for OTHER persons who are part of God, isn't it? So Isa 44:6 PROVES that God is only ONE PERSON, not THREE

IF only one person is talking in Isa 44:6 and he said “Besides ME, there is NO GOD” then if there’s still TWO OTHER PERSONS who is God, then  you are saying that God is telling a lie.

If Jesus has those titles with no beginning, then Trinitarians have a big problem.
Jesus is called the Eternal Father in Isa 9:6. Now that is a big conflict with the Trinitarian doctrine, because according that doctrine, the Son IS NOT the Father.


According to the doctrine of Trinity , God is THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS (God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit) each are FULLY GOD and Almighty.


God is not a liar, so it is the Trinity doctrine that is wrong.

Isa 63:16 - 16 For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our Father.

Jesus said at John 20:17 “‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” Notice Jesus has a God, whom he called “My God” and who is also his Father.

At Luk23:46 it states 46 And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” This was quoted from Psalms 31:5. So you can tell that Jesus called to his Father when he was about to die. “Into your hand I entrust my spirit.” The text continues “You have redeemed me, O Jehovah the God of truth.”


Note that Jesus calls his Father, My God. www.dictionary.com defines God also as “one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”

So basically, Jesus said “My God” means “My Supreme Being and CREATOR”



Gen 1:26 states “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..”

Does this verse make God composed of THREE persons?

Please notice this.

The Mother said “Let US make a cake”, Is the Mother composed of THREE PERSONS? Or Is the Mother THREE Mothers?
Or The Mother is only talking to someone else, which let’s say is a daughter.


Here are Bible proofs why the doctrine of Trinity is false.

Isa 44:24 conflicts with the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Trinity’s doctrine, there are THREE CREATORS. But Isa 44:24 states that there is ONLY one CREATOR, Jehovah, he is the only Creator. If what you said was true, then this text doesn’t allow for ANY partners as well because of the term “by MYSELF”. MYSELF is only used for ONE PERSON and NEVER THREE PERSONS.

Acts 2:36 states that God has MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ. The Lordship of Jesus has a beginning because it was MADE by God.

JWs believe in the God the Father, the Son of God (Jesus) and God’s holy spirit. It is just different with the Trinity doctrine which says that those three are “Three Persons in one God” who are all Almighty.


Phil 2:5-7 states

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.

Before coming down to earth, Jesus was a spirit, and the Son of God. Jesus emptied himself and left his position and form (form being a spirit, and other positions in heaven) and became like men (Physical).

If Jesus is God Man on earth, then he didn’t really EMPTY himself. Actually Jesus is the Son of God who EMPTIED himself and became flesh (man). Notice John 3:16 , it is the Son who was sent and not God himself.


If Jesus was GOD who became GOD-MAN HE NEVER BECAME LOWER than ANGELS, nor EMPTIED HIMSELF, but ADDED to himself HUMANITY. EMPTIED IS NOT ADDED.


Col 2:19.10 states “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”. Bodily according to Strong’s dictionary is corporeal or physical. Now, think about this, if this meant that the FULLNESS of the Godhead means FULLNESS OF BEING GOD, then how come Jesus when he was human says, The Father is GREATER than me. Jesus also LEARNED obedience. Jesus when he was a human, doesn’t know the last days’ hour/time. If Jesus’ was fully God when he was human and he has  FULLNESS of being God, how come there are these limitations?  If there are limitations, or lackness of abilities, then  it is not FULL.


Here are the Bible texts that proves that Jesus was created.

1.
    John 5:26 states “For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to HAVE LIFE in himself”.
        John 6:57 – “… and I LIVE because of the Father”.
    Life (eternal life and life to exist)  was given by the Father to Jesus, the Son.
2. For Trinitarians, the Son and Father relationship has no beginning. But Heb 1:5, that the Son and Father relationship has a beginning. Notice it uses the words “today” and “I have become”
    In Heb 1:5 it states "You are my son; I, TODAY, I have become your father"?.
   
3.  Here’s another Bible text that proves that the Father created Jesus. Notice it uses the words “This day” and begotten/made to prove that the Son has a beginning.
    Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten(Gennao) thee. Acts 13:33
   
    The word begotten in Greek is gennao. It means “to be born” –Strong’s dictionary defines this as procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be BORN, BRING FORTH, conceive, be delivered of, gender, MAKE, spring.

At Acts 13:33, it states the Father “has MADE/BRING FORTH” the Son. This verse talks about the relationship of God to his Son whom he MADE/BROUGHT FORTH (Gennoa).
   
4. We have to note that Jesus calls his Father, My God. www.dictionary.com defines God also as “one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”
, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”  - John 20:17
So basically, Jesus said “My God” means “My Supreme Being and CREATOR”
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 10:50PM #23
Theo
Posts: 4,620

ag123 wrote:

NEWTONIAN:
Thanks for asking. Incurable cancer
Take Care


Incurable cancer – ouch. Many of us on these forums are dealing with illnesses or diseases, which is one of the reasons many have so much free-time on our hands and nothing else to do. I am not one to speak presumptuously regarding what you consider to be terminal… but we know that everything impossible for men is possible for God. I was once hospitalized with a terminal disease, 12 years ago they found 3 large abscesses in my liver. It took them 2 days to find the problem, and had one of them burst during that time, I would have died within minuets.

Fortunately for me, they found the abscesses, aspirated them with foot long needles while I flopped around in an MRI machine, and afterwards put me on an Antibiotic pump for a month. My doctors saved my life… for which I am grateful.

I wish I could say that my pastor came to pray with me and that I was instantaneously healed… but that was not the case… he didn’t even come to see me. I was fearful my first night in the hospital, I felt like I was going to die and was afraid that my sweating would cause me to catch a chill and that I would start shaking and convulsing again like when I first collapsed. But after praying to God for help, I found that my fear was replaced with His peace. After that night, my 10 day stay in the hospital was one of the most wonderful times in my life – spiritually speaking. God was with me in profound ways, I felt His presence and assurance. It was not so much that I felt I was going to live, as much as it was – live or die, my life is in His hands. The fact is, the only reason I had for wanting to live was for the sake of my family – my kids were still very young. 

And so here I am today, 12 years down the road from a brush with death. I feel like I am living on borrowed time. Why God did not heal me of my infection? – I do not know. Why He blessed the doctors and gave them the knowledge and skill necessary to restore my health? – I do not know. Who paid my $23,000 in hospital and doctor bills after I got well? – I don’t know. But God knows and that is all I need to know.

Over the last 12 years I spent much of my free time doing what I can do for our Lord. I figure that I spent the first 40 years of my life, working, loving my wife and raising kids, and that now its time to serve God with the time I have left. I trust that you feel the same, otherwise you would probably not be on this forum. I hope my story has encouraged you – it is good to know that weather we live or die – we belong to the Lord. Death is not the end of us – it is merely the door to an amazing new life in the presence of God and Christ and our loved one’s who have gone before us.

May God cause His face to shine upon you and give you His peace. May He be with your loved ones, and be near to them. May He fill your heart with His assurance and grant you the courage to face these days and what lays ahead. Know that the path of the just is as the dawning, that grows brighter until it reaches perfect day. And may the Lord our God bless and keep you, may He take you by the hand and bring you with joy into His eternal glory. Or – if He wants you to continue serving Him here on earth – may the hand of Jesus touch and heal you, restore your health, and grant you the desire of your heart – in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

~ Theophilus

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2009 - 10:50PM #24
Theo
Posts: 4,620

ag123 wrote:

NEWTONIAN:
Thanks for asking. Incurable cancer
Take Care


Incurable cancer – ouch. Many of us on these forums are dealing with illnesses or diseases, which is one of the reasons many have so much free-time on our hands and nothing else to do. I am not one to speak presumptuously regarding what you consider to be terminal… but we know that everything impossible for men is possible for God. I was once hospitalized with a terminal disease, 12 years ago they found 3 large abscesses in my liver. It took them 2 days to find the problem, and had one of them burst during that time, I would have died within minuets.

Fortunately for me, they found the abscesses, aspirated them with foot long needles while I flopped around in an MRI machine, and afterwards put me on an Antibiotic pump for a month. My doctors saved my life… for which I am grateful.

I wish I could say that my pastor came to pray with me and that I was instantaneously healed… but that was not the case… he didn’t even come to see me. I was fearful my first night in the hospital, I felt like I was going to die and was afraid that my sweating would cause me to catch a chill and that I would start shaking and convulsing again like when I first collapsed. But after praying to God for help, I found that my fear was replaced with His peace. After that night, my 10 day stay in the hospital was one of the most wonderful times in my life – spiritually speaking. God was with me in profound ways, I felt His presence and assurance. It was not so much that I felt I was going to live, as much as it was – live or die, my life is in His hands. The fact is, the only reason I had for wanting to live was for the sake of my family – my kids were still very young. 

And so here I am today, 12 years down the road from a brush with death. I feel like I am living on borrowed time. Why God did not heal me of my infection? – I do not know. Why He blessed the doctors and gave them the knowledge and skill necessary to restore my health? – I do not know. Who paid my $23,000 in hospital and doctor bills after I got well? – I don’t know. But God knows and that is all I need to know.

Over the last 12 years I spent much of my free time doing what I can do for our Lord. I figure that I spent the first 40 years of my life, working, loving my wife and raising kids, and that now its time to serve God with the time I have left. I trust that you feel the same, otherwise you would probably not be on this forum. I hope my story has encouraged you – it is good to know that weather we live or die – we belong to the Lord. Death is not the end of us – it is merely the door to an amazing new life in the presence of God and Christ and our loved one’s who have gone before us.

May God cause His face to shine upon you and give you His peace. May He be with your loved ones, and be near to them. May He fill your heart with His assurance and grant you the courage to face these days and what lays ahead. Know that the path of the just is as the dawning, that grows brighter until it reaches perfect day. And may the Lord our God bless and keep you, may He take you by the hand and bring you with joy into His eternal glory. Or – if He wants you to continue serving Him here on earth – may the hand of Jesus touch and heal you, restore your health, and grant you the desire of your heart – in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

~ Theophilus

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 1:14AM #25
Theo
Posts: 4,620

Newtonian wrote:

I was not sure if theon was an error on your part or not.  I had only had the time to check Griesbach and Westcott & Hort Greek texts and was not sure if perhaps another Greek text had theon instead of theos.  Yes, it is the same word – Greek has many forms for specific words for various reasons (declensions, etc.).

Why assume I had some negative reason for bringing it up?  I trust you realize I prefer friendly discussion over debate.


That explains it. It is always easier to suspect someone’s motive than give them the benefit of the doubt. My apologies.

Was Strong a devout Trinitarian?  I expected that – and if so, then it is to his credit that he admits theos without the definite article means “a deity.”


Of course he was – few reference works get to have the standing Stong’s works have being of questionable doctrinal bias. There have been many great Bible scholars whose works are all but unknown because they had a doctrinal ax to grind… Rotherham, Darby, Panan… etc.

Now I had already posted about the predicate nominative being before the verb and subject and cited a number of examples in my earlier posts where all translators (or virtually all – depending on which verse) agree the noun is still indefinite and insert “a” in English. Rather than posting all of those examples again – it would be nice if you would actually respond on the examples I already posted. They were mostly in the book of John, btw.


I operate on a very simple level when it comes to what makes a good translation. First, I look at the Greek, analyze the prepositions, the verb tenses, and then look at the literal word for word translation from Greek to English. Then I try to arrange the literal word for word rendering into grammatically correct English – which is one of my many reasons for not liking the NWT. I use great flexibility with conjunctions like KAI, noting how it is often used to contrast as well as to continue a thought. When it comes to Theos and how it is translated when not accompanied by the definite article – I agree with Strong’s Definitions. Theos, when not accompanied with the definite article, means a god when translated into English – with one proviso… when not being used as a descriptive predicate. 

The translations I posted: NW; KJV;AT;NIV;RS; TEV – all insert “a” before the noun in question in the following verses:  Mark 6:49; 11:32; John 4:19; 6:70; 8:44 (twice); 9:17; 10:1,13,33; 12:6


But none of them even use the word Theos, and in all cases these passages would not make any sense if “a” was not added. Case in point… John 6:70-71 "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"  Lets leave out the “a” and see how that works. "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is devil?" The (a) indefinite article is necessary to complete the sentence. But in John 1:1, adding an “a” changes the entire meaning – and that should be a HUGH clue that these two examples are not even remotely similar.

Just for fun, let’s replace diabolos with theos and see what we get. "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a god?" Well that was certainly not the case, but you can see the huge difference in meaning if we were to leave out the “a.” Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is God? 

Of course this verse doesn’t even have a similar structure to John 1:1… which literally translates as, “and God was the Word.” God having the emphasis while at the same time being used in a descriptive predicate to describe the Word.

“In [the, a] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with “the supreme Divinity,” and the Word was “a deity.”” – John 1:1, with Strong’s definitions of theos.


I’ve provided my own translation too…

In the beginning (of all things) the Word already existed. The Word existed together with God (i.e. the Father) and the Word was God – by nature.


My translation takes into account the subject matter and the way Theos is being used in the context, which is why I did not supply an indefinite article. Strong’s definition of Theos works just fine in other contexts. 

“1.  The Word already existed in the beginning – NO ORIGIN IMPLIED – the WORD was NOT CREATED.”

Note NW has “the” in brackets: [the].  Check the Greek.  There is no definite article before “beginning.”  It could also correctly be translated “In a beginning.”  In other words, in the beginning of what?  Parallel to Genesis 1:1?  What do you believe on this?


Not so, firstly Archee is uttered in the plural – In beginnings > this being an intensified form, Jews did that a lot, being accustomed to the Aramaic and Hebrew plural of majesty. Secondly, see Genesis 1: 1 in the LXX which used the exact same words… John 1:1 can only be a reference to the beginning of all things.

Jesus was with Jehovah in the account about the beginning of God’s way and achievements in Proverbs 8 – I believe this is what John is referring to – if you disagree please explain why.


I would put it like this… Jesus was with His Father. And Prov 8:22-31, speaking in linear terms talks about the begetting of the Son of God.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth; while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,  when He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters would not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him, rejoicing in His inhabited world, and my delight was with the sons of men.”

You should know that Trinitarians do not shy away from Proverbs 8 its a primary text used to prove to Jews that Jehovah God was not alone, and that this personification of Wisdom actually foreshadowed the manifestation of the Word made flesh… who came to His own but His own did not receive Him. 

John 1 does not confirm or deny Jesus’ origin


– wiggle room.

Trinitarians say that by not confirming an origin for the Word, John’s affirmation that the Word was with God in the beginning implies His eternal uncreated nature, and I concur.

2.  We agree Jesus was with the Father – do you agree Jehovah is the Father?


I agree that God the Father is Jehovah… I also believe the name of God can be and is rightly applied to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit in certain Biblical contexts.

3.  We do not agree on this – I believe the definition of theos here is the one Strong indicates is normal for theos without the definite article not only for that simple reason but also because that is the definition of theos Jesus used when defending his deity in John 10:31-36 when he quoted Psalms 82:6 where Jehovah calls human judges “gods” – Hebrew elohim – compare Psalms 82:1.

Simple, when Jesus defended his deity he used the correct definition of theos for his deity  used in the specific verse he emphasized as true.


Jesus was not defending His deity here in John 1:1 > John was making an affirmation of faith. Which is why I do not consider this to be a “normal” usage of the word Theos without the definite article. The following quotation contains a few passages in the NT where the word THEOS is used without the definite article… if you can build your case from them, I’d love to see it.

Acts 12:22-23 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”

Acts 28:6 “However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.”

Or how about this passage… where the NWT inserts the definite article where there isn’t one in the Greek.

Jude 25 To [the] only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.


To be consistent they should have translated it like this… “To a only god our Savior…”

~ Theophilus

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 5:15AM #26
ag123
Posts: 339
THEO:

Thank you for your words of encouragment and for your prayers. It is a matter of trusting in the LORD. as the prayer goes your will not mine be done. People do find it hard to understand my attitude but they don't know how the LORD  can console you and be with you. Since I found out of my condition i have found a calming peace. Thank you for your prayers
TAKE CARE
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 7:34AM #27
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220
Dell - Excellent post and research - thank you for your work.  To review the fine points you made and add a few comments of my own on your points:

1.  Jesus is begotten (only-born - Monogenes).  Jehovah has never been begotten in any sense of the word!

2.  Jesus is a god in the sense of Isaiah 9:6  - Hebrew el gibbor (which means “mighty god” in contrast with Hebrew el shaddai which means God Almighty.)  I should just add that the word for god in Hebrew and Greek, el/elohim & theos, does not necessarily involve worship (e.g. Psalms 82:1,6).

3.  Future tense in Isaiah 9:6.  There is a problem with that - Hebrew does not have past, present and future tenses!  English translators differ at Is.9:6 - e.g. Rotherham (Ro) - “A child hath been born to us…And his name hath been called…. Mighty God”  - Ro footnote on Mighty God: Hebrew el gibbor as in 10:21.  However, NW makes clear that Is. 10:21 is “the Mighty God,” while Is. 9:6 is “mighty god.”  Jay Green’s Hebrew text shows the difference between el in 9:6 and the emphatic in 10:21 - cp. Deut. 10:17; Jer.32:18; Neh.9:32.

In any case, Jesus was the prophet greater than Moses, and Moses was called elohim by Jehovah in Exodus 4:16 & 7:1 - however, the definition of God here is the basic definition “mighty one” and certainly does not mean pharaoh worshipped Moses!   Gibbor in Hebrew stresses that it is “mighty one” not “one worshipped” which applies to the Messiah/Christ.

4.  Jehovah is God of gods - which is obviously not teaching polytheism.  NW footnote:

“The God of gods.” Or, “God of the gods.” MSam(Heb.), ’Elo·heh´ ha·’elo·him´; Gr., The·os´ ton the·on´; Lat., De´us de·o´rum.

I also like the point you make that additional gods does not mean false gods - compare Psalms 82:1, 6.

5.  I like the point that the Bible does not use many terms constantly repeated by Trinitarians, like God-Man and trinity/triune God.

6.  Singular I am and me does not apply to three as in the trinity - good point - of course Trinitarians will counter that the three are one!   In this case that would be, of course, circular reasoning.  Your point is not lost on me - Jehovah is one.

This is emphasized in the Jewish shema and is one reason Jews reject the trinity doctrine - to wit:

(Mark 12:28-30) . . .Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’

(Deuteronomy 6:4-5) 4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.. . .

NW footnote on “one Jehovah”: Or, “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one [or, there is one Jehovah].” Lit., “Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one.” Heb., Yehwah´ ’Elo·heh´nu Yehwah´ ’e·chadh´.

Echadh is the Hebrew numeral one.  It leaves no room for the trinity doctrine.  [Note: some Trinitarians muddy this simple point  up and falsely claim Moses should have used  Yachiyd - actually yachiyd in LXX (Greek Septuagint) includes only-begotten (Monogenes) in its definitions (also lonely) which never applies to Jehovah but does apply to Jesus.

7.  Isaiah 9:6 - Jesus called eternal father conflicts with Trinitarian belief (we agree on this point) that Jesus is the Son.  While Crispus and many Trinitarians agree - some on this forum have claimed Jesus is both the Father and the Son.  Crispus is accurately representing the official trinity doctrine - e.g. that taught by the Catholic church.

Your point is made stronger by understanding how Jesus becomes eternal father - to wit:

(Psalm 45:16) 16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.

Of course Jesus becomes their father by resurrecting them - and since they and Jesus will be eternal at this point the title does apply fully - in expectation of the fulfillment of this prophecy as certain - the title already applies.

8.  John 20:17 - Jesus worships Jehovah as God - “my God” - excellent point!  Compare Revelation 3:12.

9.  Luke 23:46 cf. Psalms 31:5 + dictionary.com on English “God.”  Good point - Jesus did not entrust his spirit to himself but to Jehovah.  This shows that ultimately the power to resurrect Jesus lied in Jehovah’s Holy Spirit.  One could go deeper on this (we have on other threads).

The main point is that in this sense Jesus worships Jehovah as God and not the other way around - Jehovah never calls Jesus “My God” nor does Jehovah pray to Jesus ever!  This supreme definition of theos (see Strong’s Greek dictionary) applies only to Jehovah.

10.  Genesis 1:26 - Jehovah was not alone at the creation of man - Crispus agrees with us that Jesus is with Jehovah at this beginning.

11. Isaiah 44:24 - Jehovah is the Creator, not Jesus.  However, please note that Jehovah did not create alone - as you know Proverbs 8 explains that all things were created through Jesus by Jehovah (cp Col.1:15 ct & cfs).

12. Acts 2:36 - Jehovah (Greek ho theos)[theos with definite article] “made” (Greek epoiesen) Jesus both lord (Gr.kyrion) and Christ (Gr Christon).   I might add that this point is made clear by the very definition of “Christ” which is “anointed one.”  I have often asked on this forum’s threads: who anointed Jesus?  Usually this goes ignored - but, of course, Jehovah anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit.

13.  Our beliefs compared with Trinitarians.  We do indeed agree in that we also believe in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.  We disagree on important details - your point about only Jehovah being Almighty (Hebrew el shaddai; cp. Greek pantokrator) is excellent.

14.  Phil. 2:5-7 - Here translations vary extremely.  However, you are correct.  Jesus, not Jehovah, emptied himself and became flesh.  He was therefore not God/Man but rather Man - the last Adam.  Otherwise the ransom would not be corresponding as in the Greek antilytron at:

(1 Timothy 2:5-6) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

To be continued
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 7:38AM #28
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220

ag123 wrote:

THEO:

Thank you for your words of encouragment and for your prayers. It is a matter of trusting in the LORD. as the prayer goes your will not mine be done. People do find it hard to understand my attitude but they don't know how the LORD  can console you and be with you. Since I found out of my condition i have found a calming peace. Thank you for your prayers
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ag123 - I am sorry to hear that.  Eat your asparagus & brocoli - it never hurts to go on an anti-cancer diet!

Meanwhile - I hope this Scripture is encouraging:

(2 Corinthians 4:16-18) . . .Therefore we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day. 17 For though the tribulation is momentary and light, it works out for us a glory that is of more and more surpassing weight and is everlasting; 18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2009 - 7:45AM #29
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220
Crispus - I will respond better later.  You are correct on John 6:70 - supplying in English is per English usage.

I note you zeroed in on that but please not the other examples.  For example John 4:19 - THE PROPHET would be correct in English usage - a prophet is required because of the absence of the article in Greek.

And, as you note, context is very important.

More later.

BTW - 2 Cor. 3:17 cp. ''the" in Gr. before the noun in predicate.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2009 - 8:12AM #30
Newtonian
Posts: 11,220
Crispus - Your posts on the Greek grammar of John 1:1 seem to have been deleted - did you delete them?

Anyway - your post involved English grammar - e.g. in John 8:44 where the predicate nominative is before the verb in the Greek text and the definite article is absent and where virtually all translations insert "a" the nouns do not make sense in English without either the indefinite or definite article.

(John 8:44) . . .YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].

This is translated "a manslayer" and "a liar" because of the absence of the definite article despite the positioning in the sentence which you said would make the noun definite but which these examples show is simply not true: the predicate nominative before the verb is still indefinite because it lacks the Greek definite article.

You are correct that simply saying "that one was manslayer" is not correct English grammar.   However, in English "that one was the manslayer" is correct English grammar - but incorrect here because the Greek definite article equivalent of our English "the" is absent in the Greek text here just as it is in John 1:1 for theos with reference to Jesus as "a god." (Strongs: "a deity.")

Note that while "he is liar" in not correct English grammar - there is still a choice in English grammar between definite (the liar) and indefinite (a liar).  Granted, there are only these two choices without adding a qualifying word, but these two choices are also in Greek - the absence or presence of the definite article are precisely those two choices in Greek: definite or indefinite.

The noun "god" in English is different that the nouns liar and manslayer - one has three choices in English:

god, a god, the God.  There is a reason for this which you hit on in your post.  God is not just a noun as a title (compare other titles like king) but is also a noun denoting a quality.  Both cases in English have three choices.  Thus some have translated John 1:1 - the Word was Divine (divine) - this is a quality.  King is similar - one can say simpy He is King, He is a king, or he is the king - the same three choices in English. 

You were posting more on a peculiararity of English grammar - it does not change the fact that in Greek grammar the absence of the definite article usually calls for inserting "a" in the English translation.

I remind you again of these two verses containing "a god" the same as John 1:1 NW:

(Acts 12:22) . . .In turn the assembled people began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!”

(Acts 28:6) . . .they changed their mind and began saying he was a god.

See my above posts for details.
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