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Switch to Forum Live View Forgiving Traditionalists, Pope Offends Jews
5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 6:00AM #1
river8101
Posts: 5,540
Reuters:  Pope Bendict XVI waves at the end of his general audience in the Paul VI hall of the Vatican.

"Pope Benedict XVI has reinstated four bishops from an archconservative breakaway wing of the Roman Catholic Church, a decision that is bound to stir controversy within his own flock. But Saturday's announcement that the Vatican will undo the 20-year schism between the Vatican and the so-called Lefebvrian movement is all the more sensitive because it comes only days after the broadcast of an interview in which British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, one of those Benedict is bringing back into the fold, denies that the Nazi Holocaust ever happened." 

More here:  http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090124/w … 9187385500

Let us never for a moment think we Jews have a friend in the Vatican.  Seems to me that the present German Pope wasn't as innocent as he claimed during WW2, when he claimed to have been forced to be a Nazi.  Lots of Germans said the same thing when they came to trial.
“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 12:25PM #2
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
If Jews are offended by this, then they obviously have nothing better to do with their time.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 1:49PM #3
clyde5001
Posts: 3,501
Why shouldn't we be offended? This is a living, breathing "Prince of the Church" who will teach his flock that the Holocaust never happened. Children will grow up thinking the Holocaust was a myth.
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:02PM #4
howiedds
Posts: 2,687
nieciedo:

If Jews are offended by this, then they obviously have nothing better to do with their time.

I agree with Clyde and River. Why shouldn't a Holocaust denier embraced by the Pope be offensive; it is offensive.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 12:25PM #5
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
If Jews are offended by this, then they obviously have nothing better to do with their time.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 1:49PM #6
clyde5001
Posts: 3,501
Why shouldn't we be offended? This is a living, breathing "Prince of the Church" who will teach his flock that the Holocaust never happened. Children will grow up thinking the Holocaust was a myth.
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:02PM #7
howiedds
Posts: 2,687
nieciedo:

If Jews are offended by this, then they obviously have nothing better to do with their time.

I agree with Clyde and River. Why shouldn't a Holocaust denier embraced by the Pope be offensive; it is offensive.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:27PM #8
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
Your reactions give a lot of fuel to the people who think the Holocaust is a big propaganda industry invented to give Jews something to get upset about.

This bishop was not being embraced as a Holocaust denier, nor was he really being embraced for himself as a individual. He was being embraced as a bishop and for the purpose of healing a schism within the Church, a schism that also didn't have anything to do with the Holocaust. It may be hard to understand, but most people don't think eat, drink, and breathe the Holocaust day in and day out.

Let's pretend a few states seceded from the Union. It sounds like you would oppose one of those states rejoining the rest just because its governor denies the Holocaust. That would be absurd, and that is essentially what is going on here.

These Lefebvrian bishops represent apostolic lineages that have been separated from the rest of the Church. It is the episcopacies that these bishops represent that Benedict is seeking to reconcile with the Church: the persons occupying those episcopacies are transitory and temporary. If the views of one of those bishops are offensive, then just wait for him to die or retire, having passed on the apostolic succession to a more acceptable person.

Did Benedict say "Hey, welcome back. It's OK that you don't think the Holocaust happened." Of course not, because that wasn't the point and doesn't really have anything to do with anything. This also was not a personal embrace of this one guy, but a general reconciliation between the entire Society he belongs to and the Church. If the point is to repair a schism that arose due to doctrinal and juridical differences of opinion, is the Pope really supposed to say "You, you, and you can come back now that we've resolved our differences, but you can't because you don't believe the Holocaust really happened?"

This kind of reaction fits in completely with the stereotype of Jews who go out of their way looking for a reason to be offended. If anything is offensive, it is that stereotype. There are over a billion Catholics in the world. If they tried to run their religions worrying about what bizarre stretches of logic could possibly offend any of the 14 million Jews in the world, they'd have to close up shop.

Let me guess: someone is going to bring up that ridiculous Good Friday Latin prayer again, right? As if one prayer, in Latin, that is only said once a year and only in those communities that choose to say it makes any difference in the world and is any worse than the objectionable prayers in our own traditional liturgy.

When Benedict issues an encyclical denying the Holocaust, then I'll get upset. Yet he has never done or said anything to earn this defamation from Jews, he's gone to great lengths to accommodate us, and he was the inspiration behind John Paul II's much lauded outreach to the Jewish people.

How would you lot feel if Catholics complained out the bigotted opinions of certain rabbis (let's not pretend we don't have any of those). I bet you'd rightly be offended and think they should mind their own business. Same here. The internal administrative decisions of the Catholic Church are none of our business whatsoever. If you want to protest this individual bishop, then by all means do so. But it's an unfounded logical leap to assume that Benedict agrees with this guy in any way in his non-ecclesiastical opinions, or to cast aspersions on his past.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 3:56PM #9
ffb
Posts: 2,116
I haven't read much on this but if the Lefebvrian movement wants to overturn the reforms of the 2nd Vatican Council, do we know that that will stop at the reinstitution of latin? Or is there the undercurrent of returning from the condemnation of ""all hatreds, persecutions, and displays of anti-Semitism leveled at any time or from any source against the Jews"? This would, in my mind, serve as official Vatican condoning of an "us vs. them" ideology which could lead to re-acceptance of the old notion that Jews bear collective guilt for killing Jesus.  If the mainstream wishes to reabsorb the fringe, it should do so with a clear and explicit statement that it repudiates the ideas that made them fringe.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 4:16PM #10
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=river8101;1042956]
Nieciedo,

You wrote:      An opinion is one thing.   What Christianity has actually done to Jews is quite another.  We have a big reason to not only resent this but to be frightened by it.    We have a long history of Catholic persecution. 

What horrible persecutions have the Jews done to the Christian Church for the past 2000 years?   

A OVERVIEW OF 2000 YEARS OF JEWISH PERSECUTION ANTI-JUDAISM:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm  70-1200 CE

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm  1201-1800 CE

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm   1800-1946 CE[/QUOTE]

Really? You mean Jews were persecuted by Christians? I had no idea! Thank you so much for educating me on this topic! I can't believe I never heard of all this before!

Seriously, though:

Please demonstrate how the readmission of a group of bishops, one of whom just happens to be a Holocaust denier, into communion with Rome equals a Papal endorsement of Holocaust denial, and moreso that this is something we should "resent" and be "frightened" by?

God, if I lived my life getting frightened by absurdities like this I'd never get out of bed in the morning.
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