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Switch to Forum Live View I don't know much about Messianic Judaism but it seems to me that they are Jewish
7 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 5:32PM #31
Idenitycrisis
Posts: 351

IMHO this thread contains some of the most bigotted dribble by my fellow goyim I have  seen, no matter how sincere and convicted. Embarassed

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 30, 2009 - 6:23PM #32
Rabbi2008
Posts: 84

It seems that this issue of Messianic Judaism and Christian Jews needs a little bit of clarifying.


"Is a Jew who accepts Jesus still Jewish?"


Yes and no. Yes because to be a Jew means to be a member of a nationality. Many Jews today do not practice Judaism but they still identify as Jews.


No because they have opted out of the faith of said nationality. When one considers that the nationality and faith of the Jewish people are wrapped up together, the issue becomes very clear. So they are no longer Jews in a religious sense.


"Is Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity or Judaism?"


Messianic Judaism is a Jewish-styled Christianity. When you get down to the core beliefs of what Messianic Jews believe and compare it to the belief statement of the Southern Baptist Convention you come to realize that they have no theological differences in belief. A Messianic Jew affirms the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Vicarious Atonement, ect. It is a Christian movement.


"Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by it's connection to the Nazarene and Ebionite movements."


The Nazarene and Ebionite sects were but a few of many Jewish sects in the first century C.E. Many Messianic Jews will point to these sects as the original Messianic Jewish movement. This is problematic for two reasons.


   1.) The Nazarenese and Ebionites ceased to exist after a couple short centuries. Messianic Judaism as it is known today began in the 1970s. There is no historical continuity between them.


   2.) The beliefs of the Nazarenese and Ebionites are inconsistent with the beliefs of Messianic Judaism in our day. For example the Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus was G-d, but only the Messiah. The Ebionites thought of him only as a prophet and kept the oral as well as written Torah.


"What status do Messianic Jews have in Jewish law?"


They are considered apostates. They have lost their portion in the World To Come and loose many, but not all, rights as Jews. The parents of a Jewish convert to Christianity usually go through a period of mourning.


"Can Messianic Jews repent?"


Of course! G-d is forgiving. A Jew who wishes to return to his/her faith and people must go before a Beit Din and renounce his/her non-Jewish beliefs and immerse in a mikveh. This is similar to the conversion process but it isn't a conversion. It is a cleansing and comming back into a proper standing with not only G-d but the Jewish community.

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 03, 2009 - 11:28AM #33
river8101
Posts: 5,587

Oct 14, 2008 -- 11:14PM, SeventhDayGirl wrote:


river8101 wrote:

LovetheLord:   It is not an insult to follow a religion of your choice. I don't know where you got such an idea.




When did I ever say such a thing as this? I have never conveyed this to you.



river8101]For the most part only the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish. The exception is Reform Judaism, which permits the child of a Jewish father to be Jewish provided the child is raised in the Jewish faith. These are biblical commands.



Where is this written in the Bible? Can you provide a verse or two p wrote:


OK: Here is where matrilineal descent came from.


In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says "he [ie, the non-Jewish male spouse] (the gentile man)  will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish (female spouse. (gentile woman)


From this, it is infered that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse (gentile man)  is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse (gentile woman) is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).


Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being "among the community of Israel" (i.e., a Jew).


On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.


Several people have asked how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.


 



 




“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 03, 2009 - 3:20PM #34
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

Nov 30, 2009 -- 6:23PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


It seems that this issue of Messianic Judaism and Christian Jews needs a little bit of clarifying.


"Is a Jew who accepts Jesus still Jewish?"


Yes and no. Yes because to be a Jew means to be a member of a nationality. Many Jews today do not practice Judaism but they still identify as Jews.


No because they have opted out of the faith of said nationality. When one considers that the nationality and faith of the Jewish people are wrapped up together, the issue becomes very clear. So they are no longer Jews in a religious sense.


"Is Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity or Judaism?"


Messianic Judaism is a Jewish-styled Christianity. When you get down to the core beliefs of what Messianic Jews believe and compare it to the belief statement of the Southern Baptist Convention you come to realize that they have no theological differences in belief. A Messianic Jew affirms the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Vicarious Atonement, ect. It is a Christian movement.


"Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by it's connection to the Nazarene and Ebionite movements."


The Nazarene and Ebionite sects were but a few of many Jewish sects in the first century C.E. Many Messianic Jews will point to these sects as the original Messianic Jewish movement. This is problematic for two reasons.


   1.) The Nazarenese and Ebionites ceased to exist after a couple short centuries. Messianic Judaism as it is known today began in the 1970s. There is no historical continuity between them.


   2.) The beliefs of the Nazarenese and Ebionites are inconsistent with the beliefs of Messianic Judaism in our day. For example the Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus was G-d, but only the Messiah. The Ebionites thought of him only as a prophet and kept the oral as well as written Torah.


"What status do Messianic Jews have in Jewish law?"


They are considered apostates. They have lost their portion in the World To Come and loose many, but not all, rights as Jews. The parents of a Jewish convert to Christianity usually go through a period of mourning.


"Can Messianic Jews repent?"


Of course! G-d is forgiving. A Jew who wishes to return to his/her faith and people must go before a Beit Din and renounce his/her non-Jewish beliefs and immerse in a mikveh. This is similar to the conversion process but it isn't a conversion. It is a cleansing and comming back into a proper standing with not only G-d but the Jewish community.




The Lamb of God as fulfilled in the jewish Jesus is obviously acceptyed by honest judaism.


Now those who deny the Lamb didn't make it out of Egypt did they.

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 03, 2009 - 5:38PM #35
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 19,045

Andrew


 


The Lamb of what?

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 04, 2009 - 7:15PM #36
Idenitycrisis
Posts: 351

Chapter and verse please Andrew. You might want to take the Why? Out of you're accepted BTW. (I do that all the time.)Smile

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 05, 2009 - 6:56AM #37
river8101
Posts: 5,587

Andrew wrote:


"The Lamb of God as fulfilled in the jewish Jesus is obviously acceptyed by honest judaism.Now those who deny the Lamb didn't make it out of Egypt did they."


What are you talking about?  Were you counting Hebrews, or is that just another tale made up by your faith?  According to the bible story, all the Hebrews left Egypt.  Is there a story out there that says that those who didn't believe in Jesus (your lamb) (and who, btw, wasn't born until a few thousand years AFTER the Exodus) were held captive, or decided to stay?  Where on earth did you get that weird story from?



“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2010 - 4:08PM #38
Rabbi2008
Posts: 84

Dec 3, 2009 -- 3:20PM, andrewcyrus wrote:


Nov 30, 2009 -- 6:23PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


It seems that this issue of Messianic Judaism and Christian Jews needs a little bit of clarifying.


"Is a Jew who accepts Jesus still Jewish?"


Yes and no. Yes because to be a Jew means to be a member of a nationality. Many Jews today do not practice Judaism but they still identify as Jews.


No because they have opted out of the faith of said nationality. When one considers that the nationality and faith of the Jewish people are wrapped up together, the issue becomes very clear. So they are no longer Jews in a religious sense.


"Is Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity or Judaism?"


Messianic Judaism is a Jewish-styled Christianity. When you get down to the core beliefs of what Messianic Jews believe and compare it to the belief statement of the Southern Baptist Convention you come to realize that they have no theological differences in belief. A Messianic Jew affirms the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Vicarious Atonement, ect. It is a Christian movement.


"Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by it's connection to the Nazarene and Ebionite movements."


The Nazarene and Ebionite sects were but a few of many Jewish sects in the first century C.E. Many Messianic Jews will point to these sects as the original Messianic Jewish movement. This is problematic for two reasons.


   1.) The Nazarenese and Ebionites ceased to exist after a couple short centuries. Messianic Judaism as it is known today began in the 1970s. There is no historical continuity between them.


   2.) The beliefs of the Nazarenese and Ebionites are inconsistent with the beliefs of Messianic Judaism in our day. For example the Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus was G-d, but only the Messiah. The Ebionites thought of him only as a prophet and kept the oral as well as written Torah.


"What status do Messianic Jews have in Jewish law?"


They are considered apostates. They have lost their portion in the World To Come and loose many, but not all, rights as Jews. The parents of a Jewish convert to Christianity usually go through a period of mourning.


"Can Messianic Jews repent?"


Of course! G-d is forgiving. A Jew who wishes to return to his/her faith and people must go before a Beit Din and renounce his/her non-Jewish beliefs and immerse in a mikveh. This is similar to the conversion process but it isn't a conversion. It is a cleansing and comming back into a proper standing with not only G-d but the Jewish community.




The Lamb of God as fulfilled in the jewish Jesus is obviously acceptyed by honest judaism.


Now those who deny the Lamb didn't make it out of Egypt did they.





The problem is that Jesus did not fullfill the criteria to be the messiah according to the Bible. There is also the problem of mistaking the role of the messiah. The Messiah cannot bring about salvation or take away sin. Only G-d can do that. No man interceding on behalf of man can do such things and the messiah will be just a man.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2010 - 6:08PM #39
river8101
Posts: 5,587

I think that last paragraph just about says it.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2010 - 6:52PM #40
Lonelydisciple
Posts: 155

Jan 12, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


Dec 3, 2009 -- 3:20PM, andrewcyrus wrote:


Nov 30, 2009 -- 6:23PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


It seems that this issue of Messianic Judaism and Christian Jews needs a little bit of clarifying.


"Is a Jew who accepts Jesus still Jewish?"


Yes and no. Yes because to be a Jew means to be a member of a nationality. Many Jews today do not practice Judaism but they still identify as Jews.


No because they have opted out of the faith of said nationality. When one considers that the nationality and faith of the Jewish people are wrapped up together, the issue becomes very clear. So they are no longer Jews in a religious sense.


"Is Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity or Judaism?"


Messianic Judaism is a Jewish-styled Christianity. When you get down to the core beliefs of what Messianic Jews believe and compare it to the belief statement of the Southern Baptist Convention you come to realize that they have no theological differences in belief. A Messianic Jew affirms the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Vicarious Atonement, ect. It is a Christian movement.


"Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by it's connection to the Nazarene and Ebionite movements."


The Nazarene and Ebionite sects were but a few of many Jewish sects in the first century C.E. Many Messianic Jews will point to these sects as the original Messianic Jewish movement. This is problematic for two reasons.


   1.) The Nazarenese and Ebionites ceased to exist after a couple short centuries. Messianic Judaism as it is known today began in the 1970s. There is no historical continuity between them.


   2.) The beliefs of the Nazarenese and Ebionites are inconsistent with the beliefs of Messianic Judaism in our day. For example the Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus was G-d, but only the Messiah. The Ebionites thought of him only as a prophet and kept the oral as well as written Torah.


"What status do Messianic Jews have in Jewish law?"


They are considered apostates. They have lost their portion in the World To Come and loose many, but not all, rights as Jews. The parents of a Jewish convert to Christianity usually go through a period of mourning.


"Can Messianic Jews repent?"


Of course! G-d is forgiving. A Jew who wishes to return to his/her faith and people must go before a Beit Din and renounce his/her non-Jewish beliefs and immerse in a mikveh. This is similar to the conversion process but it isn't a conversion. It is a cleansing and comming back into a proper standing with not only G-d but the Jewish community.




The Lamb of God as fulfilled in the jewish Jesus is obviously acceptyed by honest judaism.


Now those who deny the Lamb didn't make it out of Egypt did they.





The problem is that Jesus did not fullfill the criteria to be the messiah according to the Bible. There is also the problem of mistaking the role of the messiah. The Messiah cannot bring about salvation or take away sin. Only G-d can do that. No man interceding on behalf of man can do such things and the messiah will be just a man.




 


Jews in Jesus' day were very accustomed to discussion and argument regarding interpretation of Hebrew Scripture.  Jesus actually fulfilled the Messiah criteria according to many Jews, and Christianity was, early-on, just another sect of Judaism whose adherents worshipped in the temple and synagogues along with their counterparts in other Jewish sects.  After the destruction of the temple, relations took a turn for the worse that culminated with Jews who followed Jesus being officially excluded from the synagogues in 90 c.e.  In my humble opinion, it was this  move by the Pharisaic Jews (who controlled the direction of Judaism post-destruction) that  caused Jewish Christians to turn back from Jesus' "Way" rather than lose their historical/religious/social/business/personal foundation that went along with the synagogue.


  This is why John's gospel (4.22-23) has Jesus say "God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews. But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter."  The author of John was trying to appeal to these Jews who were having second thoughts; they understandably were quite upset at being thrown out of their synagogues - especially since they considered themselves Jewish.  Gentiles, on the other hand, had no deep ties to synagogues so it wasn't as much of a crisis to stay on the Jesus bandwagon, and the faith grew by leaps and bounds among them especially.  


The rest is history.

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