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Switch to Forum Live View I don't know much about Messianic Judaism but it seems to me that they are Jewish
5 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2010 - 6:52PM #41
Lonelydisciple
Posts: 155

Jan 12, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


Dec 3, 2009 -- 3:20PM, andrewcyrus wrote:


Nov 30, 2009 -- 6:23PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:


It seems that this issue of Messianic Judaism and Christian Jews needs a little bit of clarifying.


"Is a Jew who accepts Jesus still Jewish?"


Yes and no. Yes because to be a Jew means to be a member of a nationality. Many Jews today do not practice Judaism but they still identify as Jews.


No because they have opted out of the faith of said nationality. When one considers that the nationality and faith of the Jewish people are wrapped up together, the issue becomes very clear. So they are no longer Jews in a religious sense.


"Is Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity or Judaism?"


Messianic Judaism is a Jewish-styled Christianity. When you get down to the core beliefs of what Messianic Jews believe and compare it to the belief statement of the Southern Baptist Convention you come to realize that they have no theological differences in belief. A Messianic Jew affirms the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Vicarious Atonement, ect. It is a Christian movement.


"Messianic Judaism predates Christianity by it's connection to the Nazarene and Ebionite movements."


The Nazarene and Ebionite sects were but a few of many Jewish sects in the first century C.E. Many Messianic Jews will point to these sects as the original Messianic Jewish movement. This is problematic for two reasons.


   1.) The Nazarenese and Ebionites ceased to exist after a couple short centuries. Messianic Judaism as it is known today began in the 1970s. There is no historical continuity between them.


   2.) The beliefs of the Nazarenese and Ebionites are inconsistent with the beliefs of Messianic Judaism in our day. For example the Nazarenes did not believe that Jesus was G-d, but only the Messiah. The Ebionites thought of him only as a prophet and kept the oral as well as written Torah.


"What status do Messianic Jews have in Jewish law?"


They are considered apostates. They have lost their portion in the World To Come and loose many, but not all, rights as Jews. The parents of a Jewish convert to Christianity usually go through a period of mourning.


"Can Messianic Jews repent?"


Of course! G-d is forgiving. A Jew who wishes to return to his/her faith and people must go before a Beit Din and renounce his/her non-Jewish beliefs and immerse in a mikveh. This is similar to the conversion process but it isn't a conversion. It is a cleansing and comming back into a proper standing with not only G-d but the Jewish community.




The Lamb of God as fulfilled in the jewish Jesus is obviously acceptyed by honest judaism.


Now those who deny the Lamb didn't make it out of Egypt did they.





The problem is that Jesus did not fullfill the criteria to be the messiah according to the Bible. There is also the problem of mistaking the role of the messiah. The Messiah cannot bring about salvation or take away sin. Only G-d can do that. No man interceding on behalf of man can do such things and the messiah will be just a man.




 


Jews in Jesus' day were very accustomed to discussion and argument regarding interpretation of Hebrew Scripture.  Jesus actually fulfilled the Messiah criteria according to many Jews, and Christianity was, early-on, just another sect of Judaism whose adherents worshipped in the temple and synagogues along with their counterparts in other Jewish sects.  After the destruction of the temple, relations took a turn for the worse that culminated with Jews who followed Jesus being officially excluded from the synagogues in 90 c.e.  In my humble opinion, it was this  move by the Pharisaic Jews (who controlled the direction of Judaism post-destruction) that  caused Jewish Christians to turn back from Jesus' "Way" rather than lose their historical/religious/social/business/personal foundation that went along with the synagogue.


  This is why John's gospel (4.22-23) has Jesus say "God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews. But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter."  The author of John was trying to appeal to these Jews who were having second thoughts; they understandably were quite upset at being thrown out of their synagogues - especially since they considered themselves Jewish.  Gentiles, on the other hand, had no deep ties to synagogues so it wasn't as much of a crisis to stay on the Jesus bandwagon, and the faith grew by leaps and bounds among them especially.  


The rest is history.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2010 - 8:12PM #42
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

Lonelydisciple


Jan 12, 2010 -- 6:52PM, Lonelydisciple wrote:

Jan 12, 2010 -- 4:08PM, Rabbi2008 wrote:

The problem is that Jesus did not fulfil the criteria to be the messiah according to the Bible. There is also the problem of mistaking the role of the messiah. The Messiah cannot bring about salvation or take away sin. Only G-d can do that. No man interceding on behalf of man can do such things and the messiah will be just a man.


Jews in Jesus' day were very accustomed to discussion and argument regarding interpretation of Hebrew Scripture.  Jesus actually fulfilled the Messiah criteria according to many Jews, and Christianity was, early-on, just another sect of Judaism whose adherents worshipped in the temple and synagogues along with their counterparts in other Jewish sects.  After the destruction of the temple, relations took a turn for the worse that culminated with Jews who followed Jesus being officially excluded from the synagogues in 90 c.e.  In my humble opinion, it was this  move by the Pharisaic Jews (who controlled the direction of Judaism post-destruction) that  caused Jewish Christians to turn back from Jesus' "Way" rather than lose their historical/religious/social/business/personal foundation that went along with the synagogue.


This is why John's gospel (4.22-23) has Jesus say "God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews. But the time is coming—it has, in fact, come—when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter." [#] The author of John was trying to appeal to these Jews who were having second thoughts; they understandably were quite upset at being thrown out of their synagogues - especially since they considered themselves Jewish.  Gentiles, on the other hand, had no deep ties to synagogues so it wasn't as much of a crisis to stay on the Jesus bandwagon, and the faith grew by leaps and bounds among them especially.  


The rest is history.


Impeccable response! Smile


Mario


[#] This is a more literal translation:


22 You [people] worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time [lit. an hour] is coming – and now is [here] – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be [or “as”] his worshipers. (John 4:22-23 - NET)

 

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 1:02PM #43
river8101
Posts: 5,541

Lonely Disciple,


 


All of your beliefs are religious.  None are historical. None have any proof.  The facts remain that all of the stories in the gospels were written years after the death of Jesus, and not in Judaea, as they claimed, but likely in Greece by Greeks and Indo Europeans. Scholars claim that John wrote as much as 90 years later.


 


As to Paul, he never met Jesus, but saw him in a vision.  No proof there.  And that's Christian history about Jews.   No thanks.


 


"There are over 5,300 known ancient Greek manuscript copies          (MSS) and fragments of the New Testament in Greek that have survived          until today.
Counting an additional 10,000 Latin Vulgate and over 9,300 other early manuscript versions in Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic, and Ethiopic, totaling over 2,400 surviving manuscripts of the New Testament are likely Greek myths."


 


www.biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html


 


But where is Aramaic?  Where is Hebrew?   Not there.  Never was, never found.  Therefore, the whole of the early Christian religion is obviously Greek mythology and had nothing to do with the Jewish people.  Not one page of the gospel stories has ever been found in the Jewish languages, and whatever they copied from the Jewish writings were badly translated into the Greek and called the Septuagint.


www.biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2010 - 5:33AM #44
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,050

river


Jan 17, 2010 -- 1:02PM, river8101 wrote:

All of your beliefs are religious. [of course! what else?] None are historical. [if they were historical they would not be "beliefs"] None have any proof. [nor have most beliefs held by Judaism] The facts remain that all of the stories in the gospels were written years after the death of Jesus, and not in Judaea, as they claimed, but likely in Greece by Greeks and Indo Europeans. Scholars claim that John wrote as much as 90 years later. [perhaps you mean around year 90 ...]


As to Paul, he never met Jesus, but saw him in a vision.  [true] No proof there. [agreed] And that's Christian history about Jews.  [uh?] No thanks.


A bit of a hasty, skewed summary ...


"There are over 5,300 known ancient Greek manuscript copies (MSS) and fragments of the New Testament in Greek that have survived until today.
Counting an additional 10,000 Latin Vulgate and over 9,300 other early manuscript versions in Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic, and Ethiopic, totaling over 2,400 surviving manuscripts of the New Testament are likely Greek myths." [NT Manuscripts, @  biblefacts.org]


How serioussly do you take the website you quote from? Because if you do take it seriously, then there are a couple of interesting things, in the quoted page: 


P64 (Magdalen Papirus) is considered an authentic excerpt from Matthew, antedating 50 CE.


Quite a few fragments from Qumran cave 7 are identified as authentic NT, therefore antedating 70 CE


7q4 1,2 is 1 Timothy 3:16-4:3
7q8is James 1:23-24
7q6 1,2 is Mark 4:8 and acts 27:38


But where is Aramaic?  Where is Hebrew?   Not there.  Never was, never found.  Therefore, [sic!] the whole of the early Christian religion is obviously [sic!] Greek mythology [LOL!] and had nothing to do with the Jewish people. Not one page of the gospel stories has ever been found in the Jewish languages, and whatever they copied from the Jewish writings were badly translated into the Greek and called the Septuagint.


First, the existence of Judeo-Christians, who, until 135 CE had their own paqid/bishop in Jerusalem is indisputable. See thread "Judaeo-Christians", which made you so ... nervous.


Second, you may want to take a look at the Wikipedia article Gospel of the Hebrews, which the Church fathers Epiphanius and Jerome amply speak about, and which Jerome even calls "Matthaei Authenticum" (true Gospel of Matthew).


Mario

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2010 - 2:21PM #45
river8101
Posts: 5,541

I don't take my instructions from a Roman Catholic (you) or Andrew (a fundy Christian or Wiki, a quasi encylopedia that anybody can write in.  You and Andrew are constantly harping that you understand Judaism better than Jews is pure nonsense.  You just like to argue and put down Judaism.  


The insertions in my post in color were put there by a Roman Catholic:  Miguel.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 12:14PM #46
andrewcyrus
Posts: 4,253

Oct 8, 2008 -- 3:47PM, Ilovethelord wrote:

I don't know much about Messianic Judaism but it seems to me that they are Jewish, I don't understand how it's such an insult to be a Messianic Jew. I have Jewish ancestry on my great-grandmothers side (My dad's grandmother) and they converted to Christianity which I am a Christian today but I wouldn't mind being a guest in a Messianic Jewish Synagogue, I'm excited about going and attending one. Wow, L'shana Tova to my Messianic Jewish and Jewish friends and you all are equal and that is great.




I feel the same way. I think there is a great deal of anti-christ sentiment that finds it's faith in obsessing over attacking the faith of those who are in tune with Holy prophets of God and the saviour in JESUS. It appears to be a very non-productive use of a persons time obsessing and attacking anothers faith.


I do know that in the Church of Satan one of the very tenets of their belief statement and practice is the forceful and active rejection of christian ethics.


Jesus stated that a tree would be known by its fruit. The fruit of bondage or loss of freedom one must suffer from having to engage in these destructive patterns of attack is obvious. I always felt better about my self when I was edifying others rather than spending unfruitful hours in the bondage of destructive mental and verbal behaviours.   


I am fairly certain that "love" is not something practiced in the church of satan but love of lust and self glorification comes to mind. It would stand to reason that the self made God's would reject the love of the gift of JESUS who died on the cross and was cherished among the faithful jewish nation as the lamb of God in the old testament.


 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 7:27PM #47
Kingdom357
Posts: 343

www.v-a.com/bible is one interpretation of the Aramaic bible.  www.pershitta.org  is another and www.aramaicpershitta.com is another.  Understand that Yeshua was a Jew, not a greek and not a Christian.  He did not come to teach Gentiles He came to only the Jew.  I repeat only the Jew.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2010 - 2:42PM #48
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

Sep 23, 2009 -- 5:58PM, LeahOne wrote:


Why do nonJews who are so very ignorant of Judaism EVER think they have any 'authority' to define Judaism for us?


Why are they not going to visit the Hindus or the Wiccans and define those religions for their believers?  It would make as much sense, and be about as useful......





(brief tangent)


Pardon my language, but I've known many conservative Christians who were scared shitless of Wiccans and therefore won't have anything to do with them. It's ignorant, really, because the Wiccan Rede says, 'Do as thou wilt, but harm no one"...that would imply that there is nothing to fear, and there's a lot of misinformation (no, they don't worship Satan, etc). But some people fear what they do not know or what their community tells them to fear.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2010 - 3:01PM #49
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

River, from post 8:


"A Jew may follow Judaism as well as part of another religion providing  the practices and beliefs of that religion do not clash with  the  teachings of Judaism.  Since Christianity completely contradicts Judaism  a Christian may not be a Jew unless they convert,  and a Jew may not be  a Christian unless they convert, according to Judaism and Christianity."


Aside from the obvious contradiction with Christianity, what sort of contradictions are the most important to avoid? Meaning, would a religion's not teaching anything about kosher or using another religious text (for example) be something that would 'qualify' a faith as being one Jews could not follow in tandem with Judaism?


I could be wrong, but many Buddhists are effectively atheists because they don't worship any deity or see any sort of being as being separate from/higher than the rest of creation. They recognize the Hindu gods but don't really worship them. Would one be allowed to be a Buddhist and a Jew at the same time, since they wouldn't be worshipping any other gods? And I asked about the texts because there are many religions that don't use texts (most Pagan groups, for example).



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4 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2010 - 5:23PM #50
river8101
Posts: 5,541

Grandfather's don't count their siblings as being Jewish.  It must be direct line from the mother's side, usually not more than a generation or two away.  If you great great grandmother converted to Christianity, she wasn't a Jew anymore anyhow.   You should call yourself a Messianic, but not a Messianic Jew, unless you were born Jewish which you were not.  You were born and raised a Christian, but you can become a MJ if you join a Messianic Jewish congregation, celebrate all Jewish holidays and follow the Jewish religion.  A Messianic Jew, is a born Jew who believes that Jesus was the messiah.  But they still must follow the Jewish faith not the Christian faith.  Suggest you read Ufie's post on "Whose Who" on a different thread. He was the moderator on MJ for many years.  He belongs to a Messianic Jewish congregation but he was raised Pentecostal. (Christian)  He left that church years ago and joined a MJ congregation which he has belonged to for a long time. He celebrates the Jewish faith not the Christian faith. He can read Hebrew.  He celebrats Jewish holidays, keeps kosher.  He does not celebrate Xmas, or Easter, etc.  Since he was not born Jewish, he correctly calls himself a Messianic, not a Messianic Jew.  A Messianic Jew must be born and preferably raised Jewish who comes to believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.  Most MJ were not born and nor raised Jewish, and therefore should not be calling themselves Jews.


Judaism does not believe that a messiah has even come yet.  Some do not believe in such a being at all. Therefore Christian beliefs that a man born 2000 years ago and who has not made any improvements in society since his life or death could possibly be a messiah, for the prophets said that the messiah would bring peace to all and to the world.   So where is it?


If I, a Jew, joined a Catholic church, or a Protestant church, worshiped Jesus Christ, celebrated Xian holidays I would be considered a Christian, not a Jew by other Jews or a Christian by other Christians.  Jews would call me an apostate or a heretic. Christians would consider me a Christian.  A heretic is one who contradicts and leaves the religion he was born and raised into and worships another religion's gods.

“Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject.”
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