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7 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 6:05PM #1
thelam-entor
Posts: 323
That Scientology has no records department so they can appear to never contradict themselves by re-writing history?

What does Ron Hubbard base all his theories on? Is he considered a prophet or is there some scientific background for these things. If there is backup for the science, why won't Scientology let people independently evaluate the e-meters?

Does the South Park description of Scientology pretty much cover their core beliefs? Is it true that they hide most of that information until you're "further in"?

Why, if Scientology is a real religion, is there so much money involved? Why can't you study and practice it for free like any other religion?
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7 years ago  ::  May 07, 2008 - 10:12AM #2
Gandalf_Parker
Posts: 1,188

thelam-entor wrote:

That Scientology has no records department so they can appear to never contradict themselves by re-writing history?


I always felt that they were overboard on record keeping. If anything that would be a more reasonable complaint against them.

What does Ron Hubbard base all his theories on? Is he considered a prophet or is there some scientific background for these things. If there is backup for the science, why won't Scientology let people independently evaluate the e-meters?

Most of what is in scientology can be found in other sources. Other religions, other self-help programs, alternative medicine. I wouldnt credit LRH with saying theories, or that he made up the stuff as many claim. I think that gives him too much credit. In the best light, I think Id say "reseached by a widely written author". In worst light maybe "ripped off" would be reasonable.

Does the South Park description of Scientology pretty much cover their core beliefs? Is it true that they hide most of that information until you're "further in"?

Heehee. Nope.
I see that mentioned quite abit. And I see various famous hate sites mentioned. Whats funny is when they are both mentioned in the same post even though they contradict each other. You are talking about the "secret knowledge known only at the topmost levels"? Like Vatican level of training? As if the christian or any other religion doesnt have the same thing. But in any case Scientology says its mentioned but NOT a core belief that anyone has to believe. I think its more of an analogy. I dont know why they would bother to hide it anyway. As religious core beliefs go, it would be one of the more sensible.

Why, if Scientology is a real religion, is there so much money involved? Why can't you study and practice it for free like any other religion?


You can study it for free. They tend to make sure that the books are available in every local library. And you can join for free, attend Sunday services for free. Dont know why anyone would, they are boring compared to most religions.

Do you mean the self-help courses? You can take those fro FreeZoners who offer them outside of the "churchy" part of Scientology. But even from CoS, so much money? What religion are you comparing it to? The first few courses are really cheap compared to the same courses at a college. And much better quality. The communication course, the studying course, getting off drugs and other such things. Great stuff and cheap. Most people just take some of those then leave.

If you mean the OT levels, then thats on its way to becoming staff. By comparison that would be like joining the priesthood in another religion. Both in the numbers of people doing it (not all that many) and pretty much any other comparison you want to make.

By comparison, I guess for the lower just self-help courses you would need to look at the cost of catechism or conversion (depending on what religion you are comparing it to). The course costs, the book costs, etc. Not to mention the nudge-nudge hint-hint "donations" of 10% of your income before taxes (tithing, or 2.5 % zakat depending on the religion). And for joining the priesthood isnt it usually ALL of your worldly possessions? Most religions charge for services. Marriages, funerals, marriage counseling. Even buddhist monks charge or have you give up something for training.

Not that the "religion" thing meant much to me, thats one of the reasons why Im an EX-scientologist. But while I was one I thought that a flat-rate for specific services and being able to choose exactly when the next level was more than you wanted to spend, was a blessing compared to what I found in most other religions.

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7 years ago  ::  May 08, 2008 - 10:14AM #3
thelam-entor
Posts: 323
[QUOTE=Gandalf_Parker;486225] I dont really have the answer. I dont know the official policies on what can and cannot be discussed. But, from what I have seen, it wouldnt matter much. Most of the "discussion" that people complain they cant do tend to be heavily into slander, copyright violations, and downright hate-crime. From what I see, there isnt much stopping it either. Im on many sites where the subjects of slander and copyright come up frequently. Website hosting sites, tshirt making sites, forums, etc. Of the many popular topics, anti-scientology is one. And frequently we end up deleting peoples efforts along those lines. And always we hear screams about how scientology must have forced it. But its always just deleting them for the same violations of ToS agreements that any of the other deletions happen for. Just because scientology is the subject, it doesnt allow them to do anything that they cant do with any other group, or celebrities.[/QUOTE]

I've always considered the word "heresy" to be the worst curse imaginable because it means "don't think, don't question". In comparison to other churches, don't most encourage discourse and gently leading people around? At the very least, I don't know of any other church that tells its members to completely ignore friends and family that don't support their faith.
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7 years ago  ::  May 09, 2008 - 8:58AM #4
Gandalf_Parker
Posts: 1,188

thelam-entor wrote:

I've always considered the word "heresy" to be the worst curse imaginable because it means "don't think, don't question". In comparison to other churches, don't most encourage discourse and gently leading people around? At the very least, I don't know of any other church that tells its members to completely ignore friends and family that don't support their faith.


I dont either. Or at least they are pretty rare. Many religions have a word for it, but apparently its not done very often by any of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning

Most religions tend to be much more confrontational about their beliefs. They seem to like being up-in-your-face if you disagree with them. They look on such situations as a chance to "show them the error of their ways and bring them to the true religion".

On the other hand, the religions that seem more self-help oriented, and non-confrontational, tend to choose a "if they try to shift you from your goals then simply move away from them". Buddhism, and scientology, come to mind. Im not sure that its anything more than a suggestion of how to reach your goals.

The only thing I ever heard of is that they would refuse to provide certain courses to people who are being strongly argued by people close to them. I always felt it was just to avoid whiners. Its hard to reach enlightenment when a person keeps talking about what Mom is thinking. A person is either focused or they arent. But I never thought of that as a bad thing. I also always thought that scientology was a step up from many religions in refusing to make members of teens without their parents agreement.

But I guess everything has its pros and cons. It can all be looked at from different angles. Scientology would likely be condemned for it if they went the other way too.  :)

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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 1:07PM #5
pr_la_verdad
Posts: 118
[QUOTE=thelam-entor;482218]That Scientology has no records department so they can appear to never contradict themselves by re-writing history?

What does Ron Hubbard base all his theories on? Is he considered a prophet or is there some scientific background for these things. If there is backup for the science, why won't Scientology let people independently evaluate the e-meters?

Does the South Park description of Scientology pretty much cover their core beliefs? Is it true that they hide most of that information until you're "further in"?

Why, if Scientology is a real religion, is there so much money involved? Why can't you study and practice it for free like any other religion?[/QUOTE]

has very little if any sciencific support.

as for free practice, the books/tapes are not by any means free.  And as you may know, the tech gets edited by the Religious Technology Center over the years (which actually contradicts trying to keep it standard).

when i was studying it, the "auditing" cost $3200 for 12.5 hours.
i spent $9600 using credit cards and considered the service to be worth maybe a third of what i paid (conservatively).  NOT worth it.

and the horror stories abound.
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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 2:42PM #6
thelam-entor
Posts: 323
[QUOTE=pr_la_verdad;490623]has very little if any sciencific support.

as for free practice, the books/tapes are not by any means free.  And as you may know, the tech gets edited by the Religious Technology Center over the years (which actually contradicts trying to keep it standard).

when i was studying it, the "auditing" cost $3200 for 12.5 hours.
i spent $9600 using credit cards and considered the service to be worth maybe a third of what i paid (conservatively).  NOT worth it.

and the horror stories abound.[/QUOTE]

You think it was worth a third of what you paid? What does auditing do for you?
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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 3:10PM #7
Gandalf_Parker
Posts: 1,188

thelam-entor wrote:

You think it was worth a third of what you paid? What does auditing do for you?


Pretty much the same as couch psychiatry. Probes your buttons, talks them out until they arent buttons anymore affecting your life. Like finding out that a dog attacked you when you were little and thats why you cant stand to take walks for your health even though you couldnt figure out why you hated it. Talking it out flattens the affect whether its with a psychiatrist or an auditor.

I have heard people compare confession to psychiatric counseling so I guess that would be cheaper. But I dont think auditing is priced much different than psyche rates.

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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 3:16PM #8
Gandalf_Parker
Posts: 1,188

pr_la_verdad wrote:

has very little if any sciencific support.


Compared to what?

as for free practice, the books/tapes are not by any means free. 


They were at my towns library.

And as you may know, the tech gets edited by the Religious Technology Center over the years (which actually contradicts trying to keep it standard).


That only argues "divinely inspired" (and even that gets reinterpreted every so often). As long as it comes down from the RTC and is standardized thruout then its still a step up from others.

when i was studying it, the "auditing" cost $3200 for 12.5 hours.
i spent $9600 using credit cards and considered the service to be worth maybe a third of what i paid (conservatively).  NOT worth it.


Yeah I didnt go for it either. I felt the lower coarses helped me alot but I didnt feel a need to major auditing. Very few people do.

and the horror stories abound.


Abound? I see the same names over and over and over. It much more abounds in other religions if people bother googling abit.

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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 6:27PM #9
thelam-entor
Posts: 323
[QUOTE=Gandalf_Parker;490826]Pretty much the same as couch psychiatry. Probes your buttons, talks them out until they arent buttons anymore affecting your life. Like finding out that a dog attacked you when you were little and thats why you cant stand to take walks for your health even though you couldnt figure out why you hated it. Talking it out flattens the affect whether its with a psychiatrist or an auditor.

I have heard people compare confession to psychiatric counseling so I guess that would be cheaper. But I dont think auditing is priced much different than psyche rates.[/QUOTE]

That brings up another point. Why are Scientologists against psychiatry if auditing is basically the same thing?
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7 years ago  ::  May 10, 2008 - 6:32PM #10
thelam-entor
Posts: 323
[QUOTE=Gandalf_Parker;490842]Abound? I see the same names over and over and over. It much more abounds in other religions if people bother googling abit.[/QUOTE]

Well... what are the percentages? I mean, other religions have followers in the multi-millions. And as far as I know, scientology has the highest percentage of angry backlash against opponents compared to any other religion. I have NO evidence to support that, but that seems to be the general consensus among those I know.
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