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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 1:45PM #11
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,991
Well, kollo, I've been in a few Protestant Churches, and it is not so much that they are dead, as they don't even try.  Protestant theology is so shallow, and Protestant practice is non-existent from what I can see.

Certainly, the many converts to Orthodoxy I have spoken to agree that they found Protestantism to be shallow.

What can I say?  The best reasoned argument is worthless if it doesn't work in practice.  Why should I doubt my faith?  It works for me.  I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling.  I am subduing my passions, I see more clearly the Hand of God in the workings of the world.  I am gaining peace where before I had fear and doubt.


And it works for the thousands of Protestants who convert each year.

If you find Orthodox services creepy, then you shouldn't go.  If Protestantism gives you joy, then stick with it.  If you don't believe me, or anybody else, when they tell you that in each Orthodox Church is a bit of Heaven on Earth each Sunday, well that is you perogative.  But don't expect your half-assed arguments can trump the experience of an Orthodox Christian.
People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 2:47PM #12
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=SeraphimR;464920]Well, kollo, I've been in a few Protestant Churches, and it is not so much that they are dead, as they don't even try.  Protestant theology is so shallow, and Protestant practice is non-existent from what I can see.


No doubt similar would have been said of the NT churches- by EOs.

Certainly, the many converts to Orthodoxy I have spoken to agree that they found Protestantism to be shallow.


Those who taste sour grapes are likely to agree on a convenient 'explanation'. But anyone can throw words around. I once read that Roman theology is like a house of cards built on a jelly, and Eastern theology is like a morning mist that evaporates under the rising sun. I think that most Prot students of the two would find much resonance with that!

What can I say?


Instead of the classic false arguments you people seem to have to resort to? Just one solid, checkable fact that supports your view, you can say. Just one! If there was a charge for time-wasting at normal tutoring rates, you guys would owe me rather a lot already. :)

  I am subduing my passions


In public, where all can see you trying, presumably.

If you find Orthodox services creepy, then you shouldn't go.


Maybe God finds them creepy. Maybe God isn't there, either.

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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 5:40PM #13
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,991
Now, now Kollo, your going to have to do better.

-------------------------

The NT churces were Orthodox and we Orthodox treasure all of the Traditions of those Churches.  You might want to study the writings of the Apostolic fathers.

You can presume what you like, but it is simply you're presumption, not a solid checkable fact.  When you check the facts, you will find that it is the Orthodox Church that is the NT Church.  In fact I have read and spoken to many Protestants who came home to the Orthodox Church when they did check the facts and studied the history of the NT Church.

I encourage you to check the facts.  Checking the facts for yourself by reading the original sources (and not Protestant propoganda) is the surest way for you to come home to Orthodoxy!

--------------------------

So you admit that the Protestant grapes are sour?  That may explain why the vast majority of atheists are Protestant dropouts.

--------------------------

Orthodox theology a mist? 

Are you not a Trinitarian?  Don't you hold that Christ is fully man and fully God?  Don't you hold that we are saved through Christ's death and resurrection?

Is not your "theology" just a watered down version of the Orthodox theology?  What aspect of Protestant theology is not just a simplfication or misunderstanding of Orthodox theology?

--------------------------

And you finish off by more presuming.  Are these the sort of checkable facts you demand

-------------------------------------------

Post Script:

Here is one of many examples of Protestants coming home to Orthodoxy

There was a time when I was so theologically opinionated and narrow in my views, that I wouldn’t have given a thought about moving toward the Eastern Orthodox Church. In my Protestant frame of mind I wouldn’t exercise such freedom. God does work in mysterious ways. Today, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, my questions have found answers and I have discovered a well-grounded, unchanging liturgy, theology and spirituality that have stood the tests of time, being rooted in the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, as well as the saints through the ages. The rich spiritual heritage of the various forms of the Eastern Orthodox Church enrich my soul, as I have come to understand and appreciate those ancient forms that are so spiritually relevant for our world today. My journey has led me to a true spiritual sanctuary.



http://www.antiochian.org/node/17012

People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 6:12PM #14
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=SeraphimR;465624] Orthodox treasure all of the Traditions of those Churches.


Tradition = Novelties = Fables. See 2 Pe 2:3 to see Orthodox mentioned in Scripture.

You might want to study the writings of the Apostolic fathers.


There aren't any. Maybe I studied the men you refer to before you were born.

  When you check the facts, you will find that it is the Orthodox Church that is the NT Church.


Let's see the facts, then. If you've got them, that is.

So you admit that the Protestant grapes are sour?


And this guy tells others they have to do better! Hail the new Bob Hope!

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7 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2008 - 10:22PM #15
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,991
I pointed you to the facts.  If you are interested you can read them.

Plenty of Protestants have, and have changed their minds.

But it takes a commitment to truth, not a commitment to one's own opinions.
People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2008 - 6:02AM #16
kollo
Posts: 4,064
[QUOTE=SeraphimR;466354]I pointed you to the facts. [/quote]
:) Let's be a trifle more nuanced. You alleged the existence of facts.

We now see what is meant by 'morning mist'. Just a little sunshine dispels the mystery, revealing a complete absence of anything at all!
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2008 - 9:30AM #17
SeraphimR
Posts: 9,991
[QUOTE=kollo;466832]:) Let's be a trifle more nuanced. You alleged the existence of facts.

We now see what is meant by 'morning mist'. Just a little sunshine dispels the mystery, revealing a complete absence of anything at all![/QUOTE]

Yes, I alleged the existence of facts, told you where to find them and invited you to be a judge of them.

You have not bothered to even start considering the facts, witnesses to the NT church, perhaps because you don't know where to look. Here is a link:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic … le8074.asp

When you read what prominent men of the NT church wrote about it, then we can have an intelligent discussion


Let us start simply. I suspect that you are a sort of Protestant who opposes the existence of Bishops.

Here is a chapter from St Clement concerning the orders of ministry in the NT Church.  St. Clement was the fourth Bishop of Rome and served in the first Century.  He undoubtedly knew St. Peter and St. Paul.

How can you read this and not conclude that the NT Churches were headed by a Bishop?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xlii.html

--------------------------------------

You reminded me that you have yet to respond to my query of where your theology regarding the Trinity and  your Christology come from, if not from the Orthodox Church?

If you are some sort of Unitarian, we will have to proceed differently.  And if you are not, you are going to have to explain where your Trinitarian theology comes from.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Campbellite:

Thanks for your warning.  You are certainly right, but it is a podvig to teach the Gospel to the jeering masses, and who knows?  Harder hearts than kollo's have been softened by the Holy Spirit.
People with a mission to save the earth want the earth to seem worse than it is so their mission will look more important.


P.J. O'Rourke
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2008 - 5:50PM #18
Basil1951
Posts: 204
Kollo,

Here is a book for you, "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church," by Clark Carlton.  It is available through Amazon.com or BarnesandNoble.com.  It will provide some of the facts you desire.

Here are a few of websites for you to peruse:

www.goarch.org

www.oca.org

www.antiochian.org

Enjoy.

Basil
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 24, 2008 - 11:36AM #19
Solidgranit
Posts: 34
You know Seraphim I agree, I have grown up in various Protestant Churches and over the years as I learned more about Chrisitianity as a whole and other religions; I think Protestantism needs some deepening.  Services are boring and dry, they feel like a group prayer and song meet vs. a real active worship.  Both the Catholics and Orthodox don't have this problem.  I mean an informal worship service is good sometimes but.... it should be more at least more often.  I think if Protestant Chruches just kept the theology and did some sort of liturgy, I think it would be just fine.  Some people like that about Protestant Churchs, it simple but... eh, its just me
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 22, 2008 - 8:53PM #20
Artforgood
Posts: 11
There is something about gathering around the foot of the Cross that produces humility. . . and all the fruit of the Spirit of God (Galatians 5). Perhaps the participants in this thread so far could demonstrate a bit more charity and more than a bit of willingness to hear what each other's doctrines and practices really are. ALL Christians believe the Nicene Creed. What we differ in is the delivery system.
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