"Despite administrational division, Orthodoxy remains united in faith, the Sacraments, etc. But is this sufficient?
“When before non-Orthodox we sometimes appear divided in theological dialogues and elsewhere; when we are unable to proceed to the realization of the long-heralded Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church; when we lack a unified voice on contemporary issues and, instead, convoke bilateral dialogues with non-Orthodox on these issues; when we fail to constitute a single Orthodox Church in the so-called Diaspora in accordance with the ecclesiological and canonical principles of our Church; how can we avoid the image of division in Orthodoxy, especially on the basis of non-theological, secular criteria?”
I think His All Holiness hit the proverbial nail on the head for me. I hear the Orthodox say that they are united in the faith, but what do I actually see? I see what Bartholomew laments. And he does more than just lament the situation. He uses the words unable, lack, and fail.
If the leader of a group of Baptists, or the leader of a group of Evangelicals (of - for example -the Baptist World Alliance, or the World Evangelical Alliance) claimed to be united in the faith with their fellow Baptists, or Evangelicals and then said something like this what would the rest of us think?
I'd wonder, "You claim to remain united in the faith and yet you are unable to proceed to hold a general council of your church, you lack a unified voice on contemporary issues, and you have failed to constitute a single church in your mission area? You either have a very narrow definition of faith, or you are wrong about being united in the faith."
A candid and troubling admission from the Ecumenical Patriarch
First, I would like to know why you think strong administration unity is important?
For two thousand years the system we have works just fine. It is the faith that is important, everything else is there to teach and preserve the faith. If you are looking for a person to keep it all together, the person would be the bishop. In the bishop and his flock is the complete Church. The bishop is set apart for the task of rightly teaching the Gospel message. All bishops have this task. Today we call the flock and ruling bishop a “diocese”.
Bishops meet from time to time with the bishops of other diocese of the region. This synod, or council, picks a bishop among them to be the “first among equals”, the primate. The primate is usually the bishop of the most important city of the region. The regions were once specifically defined geographic territories, but today there is much overlapping. (Not a big problem, but an obstacle at times.) The point is that the ruling bishop is primate for administration, not teaching the faith. Although the process of correcting a bishop, done by the complete synod, is usually overseen by the primate.
Another task of the primate, is to represent his church, his group of bishops, to the other churches, the other primates and groups of bishops. He is like the spokesman. He is also the spokesman to the non-orthodox of his region.
Among the primates, there is an order of primacy, a primacy of honor. At the top of this order was once the bishop of the city of Rome, but today it is the bishop of the city of that was once called Constantinople. This primate not only is the spokesman of orthodoxy to the non-orthodox of the region of his diocese, and to the non-orthodox of the region of his church, but is also the spokesman for orthodoxy to the world. That is why you may hear his options a lot. Remember that he may have the highest place of honor in the Church, but in the teaching of faith, and shepherding his diocese, he is the same as all other bishops.
I say all this to point out the paradox that the universal Church is very local. The only thing that completely bonds of the people of the Church together, is the love of God. It is the desire to be one with God in the same way that the three persons of the Trinity are one. It is the desire to be one with all the people that are one with God.
This does not happen because the Church has a strong administration. A look at history will show that times of strong administration was an obstacle to the teaching of the true faith.
I think His All Holiness hit the proverbial nail on the head for me. I hear the Orthodox say that they are united in the faith, but what do I actually see? I see what Bartholomew laments. And he does more than just lament the situation. He uses the words unable, lack, and fail.
His Holiness’ comments are on administration not faith or teachings of the Church.
I'd wonder, "You claim to remain united in the faith and yet you are unable to proceed to hold a general council of your church,
What does one have to do with the other?
… you lack a unified voice on contemporary issues, and you have failed to constitute a single church in your mission area? You either have a very narrow definition of faith, or you are wrong about being united in the faith."
I do not see it the way you do, please give some examples. Also, what do you mean by a “single church in your mission area”, I could point out the Western Christianity is much more fragmented than Eastern Christianity, I see no unity in faith in Western Christianity. But please give me an example of where one orthodox church teaches a different doctrine than another orthodox church.
Sorry for the mutable replies but I may have misunderstood your question because the word church has many meanings. You asked:
Huson wrote:
I'd wonder, "You claim to remain united in the faith and yet you are unable to proceed to hold a general council of your church,
And I replied:
WitnessNJ wrote:
What does one have to do with the other?
The orthodox churches do hold councils of on a regular basses. The Church is made up of churches, and I thought your question was about the Church having a council of bishops from all the churches. While there are form time to time councils of bishops from many churches, I do not believe that there has been, in modern times, a council of bishops from all the churches. But I believe it to be canon law that each church does hold councils of all their diocesan bishops.
RE First, I would like to know why you think strong administration unity is important?
Since one of the marks of the Church is that she is "One" administrative unity would be a physical sign of a spiritual reality. Is "the faith" only what we believe, or should it actually manifest itself in concrete ways across Orthodoxy? I think this is the EP's point: The Orthodox will continue to have a hard time claiming that they remain united in the faith if they are unable to do the things that His All Holiness has listed.
Is being united in the faith "sufficient"? In the above quote the EP's implied answer is, "No."
RE The regions were once specifically defined geographic territories, but today there is much overlapping. (Not a big problem, but an obstacle at times.)
Thanks for all the information about the Orthodox bishops. Concerning the above sentence in your reply, I know that the overlapping is true in the United States; what other countries is this overlapping currently happening in?
Also, the EP mentioned the "so-called Diaspora" and I have seen the phrase "Orthodox Diaspora" in other places. I believe this is a reference, at least in part, to the Orthodox Church in the United States. If not, what is the Diaspora?
[QUOTE=WitnessNJ;920655]His Holiness’ comments are on administration not faith or teachings of the Church.
... What does one have to do with the other?[/quote]
If I understand the EP correctly, he is saying that faith and practice must be related. One cannot believe that "there should be no divisions among you" (as Paul told the Corinthians) and then be unwilling to move toward the resolution of the issues that the EP noted. To someone looking from the outside in (as I am) it is not "sufficient" to just have the same set of beliefs and not be able to put that faith into action on the major issues that His All Holiness has listed.
If ones system of belief does not lead them to and enable them to work together with others in their religious group to solve the major issues in that faith community, then I (as an outsider) would suspect that either this faith is not a very useful one, or that the people claiming to "remain united in the faith" are, in fact, not.
If there is another perspective on this I would be glad to know it.
[QUOTE=WitnessNJ;920655]... I do not see it the way you do, please give some examples. Also, what do you mean by a “single church in your mission area”,...
I was trying to see how the EP's statement would sound if put in the mouth of a Baptist, or Evangelical.
Also, what do you mean by a “single church in your mission area”,...
I probably should have substituted the word "group" for "church." (Trying to make it sound Baptist.)
When the EP said, "when we fail to constitute a single Orthodox Church in the so-called Diaspora in accordance with the ecclesiological and canonical principles of our Church" I took him to mean, for example, the situation of the Church in the U.S.
I could point out the Western Christianity is much more fragmented than Eastern Christianity, I see no unity in faith in Western Christianity.
If there is a mirror broken in 9 pieces and another mirror broken in 20,000 pieces - the mirror is still broken.
... But please give me an example of where one orthodox church teaches a different doctrine than another orthodox church.[/QUOTE]
I cannot, but it is not because no differences exist. SInce there is no Orthodox Catechism that has been approved by all of the Patriarchates, I cannot confirm this one way or the other.